Danny Heke

EPISODE 7:  Danny Heke, Cultural values, and societal deficits. @focuswithdan
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Danny Heke hails from a small rural town in the Central North Island of New Zealand called Te Awamutu. Now he resides in Queensland, Australia with his family.
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At 17 years old Danny joined the Royal NZ Navy as a Combat Sailor (Underwater). He served for 15 years until he moved to Perth to work in the Pilbara mines as an Emergency Services Officer. After 4 years working in the Pilbara in Perth, Danny and his family moved to Brisbane and he currently works for BHP in the Bowen Basin as an Emergency Services officer.
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Danny traverses two different lives while being a week-on-week-off mine worker. He works long 12 hour days and when he is home, Danny loves helping his kids get ready for school and running them around. Danny loves to stay healthy by working out every day, even after a 12 hour work day.
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Danny has seen active war zones and participated in peacekeeping efforts while serving in the Navy during the East Timor conflict in 1999.  "It was an amazing experience and allowed me to help many people, achieve some amazing things." - Danny Heke
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Danny opens up about "warrior upbringings" and how Australia and New Zealand are very similar but also very different..
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Disclaimer:  Sobah Life Podcasts may contain explicit content relating to social-emotional wellbeing concerns such as abuse, addiction, self-harm and suicide. If you are likely to be offended or triggered by the discussion of these topics we recommend you do not listen to our podcasts. Sobah Life is not intended to replace professional help.  If you have any concerns about your social and emotional wellbeing, you should consult your doctor or mental health practitioner.  If you are triggered by any of the content of our podcasts and need immediate assistance you can call Lifeline (13 11 14), Beyond Blue (1300 22 4636) or if you are a young person, Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800).  A further list of crisis hotlines can be reached at:
https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/mental-health-services-infographic

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Transcript

Clinton Schultz  0:00  
Yaama maliyaa. Welcome to Sobah Life, a podcast that delves into people's lived journeys from merely surviving through to thriving. We yarn with people from all walks of life, who have been rock bottom and have found the strength, courage and determination to pick themselves up and to keep on going. We'll hear their stories, share their laughs, and shed a few tears while learning a truckload about living along the way. The stories are raw, and real. Sobah Life is proudly brought to you by Sobah Beverages, Australia's first non-alcoholic craft beer company, and is hosted by me, Dr. Clinton Schultz, a Gamilaraay man and psychologist. If anything in these yarns triggers you, and you need immediate help, please ensure to yarn up, you can contact Lifeline, Beyond Blue, or if you're a young person, Headspace or Kids Helpline.

Clinton Schultz  0:03  
Yaama Yaama Sobah Life listeners, welcome back. Thank you for joining us once again, this afternoon, I'm very fortunate to have along with Danny Heke, for a conversation, he's gonna yarn to us through His journey, his passions, what he's seen happening in society that has been impacting on people that he works with him that he engages with. And what he has seen has and is not working, and a whole bunch of other stuff, I'm sure. So let's get in into it. And I'll throw over to you, Danny.

Danny Heke  0:32  
Awesome. Thanks, Clint, for inviting me here today. You know, before I even talk about who I am,I want to acknowledge you and acknowledge your people. You know, I fly in and out of Warren bar every day, sorry, every week. And, you know, we land in Bundarra country. And the first thing they say, to us when we land there is we would like to acknowledge the First Nation people. Present, past and emerging. I like that acknowledgement. It's almost tokenistic. So, you know, before I start on, on this, this podcast, I just want to acknowledge deeply how lucky we are to be here. How lucky, myself is, is a Maori man here in Australia, living  on Yugambeh  country that, I wholeheartedly, thank you for having us here. And being a guest in your country. And I really want to push home. That acknowledgement, because it's more than just those three words, past, present, and emerging. It's about, your people, your land, and the struggle, you have all endured, which doesn't get enough acknowledgement. So thank you, again, thank you for having me here. And I'll now move on to who I am. 

Clinton Schultz  2:24  
Nah, thank you very much for that. And, you know, we were having a yawn just before we started this, and I said, you know, quite often it's the case that when I'm fortunate enough to travel over Te Awamutu I, I actually feel that I get more respect over there. By just everyday people then then we often afforded here in our own countries here on the mainland, and what most people call Australia these days. So people really do have to understand that what we might want to take up these customs of things like acknowledgement to country that people have to be able to find their place within that. And that has to be some, some heart and spirit actually in it, that it shouldn't just be a tick, a tick the box exercise that I was told to do it, so I did it. But people need to understand what their place in their role and responsibility within that is so very much appreciate that brother. 

Danny Heke  3:09  
Yeah. And, you know, I've been here a few times, to Australia. I came here in 2011. Most recently, but prior to that, I'd been here from my journeys in the Navy. So I will introduce myself now. My name is Danny Heke. I am one of seven children born and bred in New Zealand in a small place called Kihikihi. It's a rural, small rural area, south of Hamilton. And I am the second of the seven, my sisters, the eldest, and I have five younger brothers. Now, as you would imagine, growing up in such a small community, there's a lot of togetherness, there's a lot of gatherings, if you like. And, you know, when we have those gatherings, there's a lot of alcohol involved. And so we all we all bought up society, in a area surrounded by a lot of drugs and a lot of alcohol. Now, that journey sort of followed me right through my younger, younger days, growing up in a small place, and, you know, I went to school, did my schooling in college and carried on, you know, until I left school at 17, where I joined the Navy. So right through my childhood, I was surrounded by alcohol. And then when I left school and joined the New Zealand Navy, Royal New Zealand Navy. The culture was very similar, similar there at the time. So, you could say that, you know, a lifetime of being surrounded by alcohol. And obviously, with alcohol comes, those domestic problems, domestic violence, sexual abuse, all those types of things. And I was, I was a, what would you call it a victim if you like, of abuse, violence and sexual abuse. Now, when you carry that sort of trauma through your, through your journey, you find something that helps, helps you to mask it, mask, that trauma, masks that pain. And because I had been brought up around it, I turned to alcohol, just like a lot of other people. 

Clinton Schultz  5:57  
It's a learned behavior, right? Like, when when you see other people coping through whatever the negative coping strategy is, then, then that's what you tend to pick up. And then if you're in communities, where you're led to believe that's the only opportunity that you have for coping, that increases the chance that you're going to turn to that particular form of negative coping so many people who are listening to this and would be aware of my own story, and much like yourself, I experienced a lot of abuse when I was younger, and then I turned to drug and alcohol abuse for a whole bunch of time after that, and it took me a really long time now from a slow learner, or from stubborn or just a fucking idiot at times. But it took me a long time to realize that I was just continuing that circle. And if I wasn't going to be willing to change then others around me, those that looked up to me, those that were connected to me were more than likely going to follow the same path that I've chosen.

Danny Heke  6:52  
Yeah, you're totally right, and, you know, being brought up in a society and community that thrives around alcohol. And then moving into a work life that has the same attributes. Just it's a continuation of a pattern of behavior. So all the things that come with alcohol abuse, that is fighting, you know, violence, sex, drugs, all that stuff, it was a continuation throughout my life. And I'm the same, it carried on very late into my life, right up into the last years of my time in the Navy, I spent 15 years in the Navy, and probably a good 14 to nearly 15 of those years, I was involved with alcohol abuse and it had major impacts on my life. And one of the reasons why I'm here in Australia is to get away from that was was to be able to get away from that. And it was identified by my mother in law of all people, she saw a pattern of behavior going on. And obviously her biggest interest was her daughter and thats who was the real backbone, if you like in the story, because without her I wouldn't certainly wouldn't be here today. And so, that brings us to my journey here to Australia. And because I had been here before I had preconceived ideas about Australia, being the land of the, the milk in the honey.I had perception of the First Nations people, indigenous people, the Aboriginal the Torres Strait Islands. And because my travels here, prior to that moment, all the interactions I've had with with the Aboriginal people, the First Nations people were in a negative context because of because of alcohol. So every time I had an interaction with you know, we call them we call your people in Māori, "tangata moemoea" which means the people the dreaming people, the people of the dream world, and I didn't, I didn't understand what that meant. So coming from a warrior culture clashing with another warrior culture, obviously these implications, *both have a laugh* you know, a scenario where who's the strongest?

Clinton Schultz  9:43  
Yeah for sure.

Danny Heke  9:43  
So, you know, I had a few run ins with some of the locals in certain areas Darwin, Perth, Melbourne, Bunbury, you know, we had all these interactions, but they were on a negative connotation. So when I came here, in 2011, I still had these same preconceived ideas in my head these people who these people were, you know, it's in the whole 11 years that I've been here, it's taken me probably 10 of those years to finally, figure out that of these two warrior nations, Warrior cultures, the people of the land are the real winners, because it's their land, it's their home, and you can never take that away from them. So, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is that my behavior because of alcohol, alcoholism, and actually not because of it, because it was just a tool that I was using at the time. So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm sorry for my actions to your people. I understand now, who I am, who you are, and where my places here in Australia. And that's why I needed to open this podcast with their acknowledgement, because it's set with me heavily with me, since I've been here. So yes, I just want to say I'm very sorry. 

Clinton Schultz  11:24  
Nah, Gaba nindu bro, it's very much appreciated. And and it goes both ways. You know, most people here in Australia would still hold ill conceived and deficit discourse, sort of focused connotations or assumptions about Maori because they've all been influenced by freakin once were warriors. So people automatically assume that every Maori that they're going to come across is going to be a violent perpetrating gangster as well. Whereas some of the most beautiful people that I've had the opportunity to, to work with and to yarn with and, and to spend time with in my life have been Maori  elders, that have just been some of the most peaceful and most beautiful souls that I've had the opportunity to think of. So it really does go to show that sometimes, you know, these ill conceived perceptions that we have of others can lead us to, to disengaging or to, or to not engaging, at least in a positive manner with other people. And that's one of the problems I think we've got in Australia at the moment is not enough, people are willing to learn about other people. And so everybody's just walking around with their, their biases and their stereotypes and acting upon those rather than taking five to have a yawn. And look beyond those stereotypes, look beyond people's pain and suffering, even at times and actually have a look at the spirit have a look at the soul and see what's going on for another person. So yeah, definitely goes to goes both ways. 

Danny Heke  12:51  
Yeah. And it's funny should say that, you know, talking to people, it's a big thing in Maori culture, as we call it, " kanohi ki te kanohi", which means face to face. And our elders are very similar to your elders, they hold all the knowledge and wisdom. And we have a system, which it's an talked about system called "tuakana, teina", which means older brother, younger brother. And through that system, is how we generate the exchange of knowledge of that knowledge and wisdom. So, you know, I was brought up by my grandparents. And I was, I was privy to this knowledge, all these years ago. But, you know, I kick myself now, because I don't, I didn't take enough notice of the teachings that I was, that was been handed down to me at the time. And it's only until recently that then I realized that I had the key to, to being really successful. But I chose not to, chose not to take that advice. And so now, I'm in a space where I'm running out of time. You know, I, I understand that I'm still very young. But what I mean by running out of time, I mean, my elders arent gonna be around for much longer. 

Clinton Schultz  14:22  
Definitely. 

Danny Heke  14:23  
So, I've met some of the elders that you've been talking about. And one of the ones that I'm currently engaged with, his name is "to a John Shortland". And he is, he has taught me so much just in the small amount of time that I have been in his presence. And I'm very grateful for the wisdom and knowledge that he's passing down to me. He's actually an uncle of my wife. So once again, my wife and my wife's family have come to my rescue. So it's all because of that decision and that decision to come here to Australia, which brings me now to, to Sobah Beverages. So, you know, I was, I was really a little bit nervous when I when I received the invitation to become an ambassador for Sobah Beverages. I was a little bit scared, because firstly, because because of that initial interaction with with the people. So that was my first reaction was oh man, I've got I've got a lot a lot of baggage with these people. And, and I know what to do. So I thought about it. And I thought, well, you know, what this could be an opportunity to, to heal that relationship to extend a olive leaf and have an opportunity to mend that. And so, you know, it's taken me, how long have I been an ambassador now?  

Clinton Schultz  16:07  
years *both laugh* I think you are the you're our first ambassador first or second *Luagh*

Danny Heke  16:15  
I've only  just come out of the woodworks recently *Clinton Luaghs*. You know, and it's because of this elder that I'm following around now. He's, passed so much knowledge to me. And he saw this as an opportunity to heal that, "mamae " or hurt or pain from the past. So, once again, I've got I've got to thank my lucky stars that I have these people around me to, to help me into the space. So you know, here I am now. I'm here in Australia, had been given all these wonderful opportunities, I work in the mining industry, working as a fire and rescue officer and large multinational company called BHP. *Cliton Laughs* I dont know how that really stands? 

Clinton Schultz  17:04  
never heard of them, who are they? *Laugh*

Danny Heke  17:08  
well, you know, I know for some of it you know, it's the whole political side of the relations between the First Nation people in these mining companies because I've seen you know, specially recently and events that have happened and but what I can say for bhp is that they have an extremely great relations with the "Bundarra" people up in "Bundarra country" the way we are, they have systems in place to ensure that the First Nations people advised on everything, and I'm not a voice for bhp, I'm just here, I guess I'm trying to justify why? *Laughs*

Clinton Schultz  17:52  
No justification needed, You know, I often tell people because, you know, a lot of our mob feel really uncomfortable about working within the mining industry as well, which is, you know, I completely understand it, but at the same time, at times, it can almost be hypocritical for people to judge those who are working in mining, as if they are to blame for the problems of, of the world when, you know, they're just trying to make a living and provide for their families and communities. But also, you know, it's very easy for people from individualist societies, but unfortunately, it seems to happen with our mobs who come from more collectivist societies as well to forget that we still fucking use and that electricity as well or we're still burning that gas, or we're still putting that petrol in the car. So it's really unfair to attack those who are working in the industry when we're actually unfortunately benefiting from it as well and utilizing it in our day to day life. It just, there's not a great sense of ownership within that and and that's a problem, I think, that we have in Australia is everybody's wanting to constantly blame everybody else rather than being a little bit mindful of of their own consumption, and their own part in the ongoing destruction and disconnect  that many people's then it's just, you know, destruction to country and disconnected peoples that that can lead to so, you know, I used to be really judgmental of our own mob who would go and work in the mines. And I really had to learn over time that that was an unfair position to have and, and that, you know, they're just, they're just trying to provide for their families and communities. And I'm actually the one that's still you know, I'm sitting here right now we're using a whole bunch of electrical equipment to record this yarn. So, if I'm going to bitch and moan about the way that our electricity comes to us at present, then I should switch all this equipment off and we shouldn't be having this yard. So while I think we can always look at how we can be doing less harm, and doing more good, I think we also have to be fucking real with ourselves and understand that if we're on this planet, we're at some level still doing some damage. So I can limit that and I can be a lot more mindful, but I still got to accept and acknowledge at some level, I'm still doing some damage. So yeah. 

Danny Heke  20:02  
well, that's really great to hear. And, you know, I do take time to talk to the people of the land there, they come out, and they go out and gather all the artifacts and bring them back. And we've had an opportunity to go out there and just see how they do it and watch them work. And, you know, if I wasn't working up there would never have seen they're stuck here in the city, stuck in my own little world. So, you know, in a way, having that opportunity to be out there has been great in that regard. So, I do think my lucky stars once again, these lucky stars seem to me seem to be following me around a bit. So it's been awesome. Now, that brings me to where I am now. So once again, I've been following my Komatsu around. And there's been a massive shift in my thinking because of this relationship we have. And now the the shift is into the communities. So now, I have, we have co started a men's group 

Clinton Schultz  21:15  
...deadly....

Danny Heke  21:15  
 And that men's group is just a platform for our men to come out and have a conversation....

Clinton Schultz  21:25  
...Yep...

Danny Heke  21:26  
And one of the reasons we created this platform was because we've had a spate of suicides within the community. And they're very, they've been very close to home. So "Whanau" family,

Clinton Schultz  21:41  
very sorry to hear that brother. 

Danny Heke  21:42  
And you know, each of those men that passed away. All the stories you hear about them, there was no indication that this particular thing was going to happen. And so we're dealing with a silent killer. 

Clinton Schultz  22:02  
Absolutely. 

Danny Heke  22:03  
And so if we can provide a space, where men can just talk openly, freely, and this group, it's, it's not just for Maori, it's for anyone, but the difference about this group is that it's, it's based on a Maori viewpoint. So we always open with karakia or prayer, we always  nga mihi so acknowledgments. And then the floor is passed over to the attendees of the group. And that brings us to where we are now. And the work that you and Lozen have been doing. We see it as a Another tool we can use to reach out to our men and show them that alcohol doesn't need to be a factor in whatever decision making that they may have. And so one of the things that I'd like to acknowledge is that, you know, all the pain and hurt that I've caused throughout my childhood, my, my adulthood, right up until now, you know, I blame it on alcohol. But the real perpetrator is the person consuming that alcohol. And so I take a look in the mirror, and I see myself. So now I'm here, and I see a platform, I see a tool, I see a resource, that can be replaced, can be a replacement for that bottle that can. And it's on a positive and non alcoholic arena that can totally change your mindset. 

Clinton Schultz  23:56  
And that's one of the main reasons we do what we do here is when I stopped drinking, I very quickly realized, I fucking love beer, and why shouldn't I be able to have a beer just because I don't want to get pissed. And I pretty quickly figured out that it wasn't the only human being going through that. And so I think providing choices actually helps empower people, this isn't going to work for everybody. Some people can't go anywhere fucking near anything that reflects an alcoholic beverage at all because it could be a trigger for him. And we completely get that. For some people. Maybe this fucking does help. For some people, maybe it just helps them to not drink drive. Maybe it helps them to not get on the piss at a birthday party at a kid's birthday party, whatever it might be, you know, we're, we're definitely not telling people to be teetotallers. But fuck, we want to give people options and we want those options to be damn good, because I haven't always been that way. So very much appreciate the the acknowledgement of what we're trying to achieve here and on top of that, we'd very much appreciate having you on board as part of this Sobah journey and all the spruiking that you've done know of cyber I've I've constantly pisser myself at all the funny things that you get up to in trying to promote Sobah in the most imaginative way possible. Some of the challenges I'm still trying to wrap my head around how they occur, but I'm never scared of a challenge. So I'm gonna I'm gonna take them out one by one and see, I've tried the one of trying to put my shirt on upside down. 

Danny Heke  25:35  
You did well, 

Clinton Schultz  25:35  
yeah, I got I got it. It was tricky. It was more the coordination. It wasn't the strength part I struggled with. It was fucking coordination. Man, anybody had swear I'm distraught now because I can't even put a shirt on that. Yeah, it was fun. 

Danny Heke  25:50  
well, you know, those moments that create not so much curiosity, but it creates a conversation. 

Clinton Schultz  26:02  
Absolutely.

Danny Heke  26:04  
And so you need to talk to your marketing department and you need to get on Tik Tok. *Clinton Laughs* I've got a particularly large audience on me. It might help a little bit.

Clinton Schultz  26:18  
I don't even have, I don't even have Facebook. I'm fucking as old school as they come. Lozen still has to tell me how to access my messenger. *Both laugh* I have be watching Tik Tok. I heard someone say that Tik Tok's, the new marketing platform and that when that insta is yesterday, I'm like, Man, I don't I don't even know how to run that. So I've got no chance of running the new thing. So I'm sure Lozen will figure it out But.

Danny Heke  26:44  
yeah, well, it's, I mean, If a five year old can do it, I'm sure. *Both Laugh*

Clinton Schultz  26:53  
yeah five year olds are pretty capable these days, I watch a watch. I quickly my five year old, we don't even let our kids have like phones or iPads or anything like that. But man as soon as I get hold of somebody else's fucking two minutes, and he's figured out how to unlock it, how to use it, how to download whatever program he wants, and how to use the credit card to get whatever extra apps that program needs. Five year olds are on to it.

Danny Heke  27:20  
So, you know, I have been working with this "Komatora". And he is he's been a massive ambassador for for the First Nation people, which is where my, my newly found acknowledgement of your people are. So, I really needs to take my hat off to him. And to, to to my wife and her family for, you know, giving me this opportunity. Because like I said, if she wasn't as strong as she was, we wouldn't be here today. 

Clinton Schultz  28:02  
Where do you reckon you would be?

Danny Heke  28:06  
Well, you spoke about once were warriors, that, that scenario would probably would have transpired in real life for me. So what I mean there's the gangs, 

Clinton Schultz  28:17  
yep, 

Danny Heke  28:17  
drugs, alcohol, and probably a box in the ground. So..

Clinton Schultz  28:22  
Box in the ground or a box behind bars?

Danny Heke  28:25  
Or

Unknown Speaker  28:25  
the

Danny Heke  28:26  
exactly, so, I'm really blessed to be surrounded by these people. And obviously, I've with my wife comes three beautiful children, who've given me a new lease on life.

Clinton Schultz  28:40  
 Funny, how they'll do that.

Danny Heke  28:42  
 Everyone says the same thing. No, it's true. 

Clinton Schultz  28:45  
It took me to my second to wake up to my fucking Dumb as self. How long did it take you?

Danny Heke  28:51  
Oh, I don't know if im there yet 

Clinton Schultz  28:53  
*hahaha* me neither. Probably. At least I quit drinking. I quit drugs. When we had the second one. And it was about two years later that I quit drinking my, my five year old is he's never seen me drink. He's never seen alcohol in our house. That's a pretty cool thing to be able to claim it and it reminded me of you know, part of how I, I started all this journey. My sobriety journey was I was in New Zealand in Te Waipounamu we've fucking stupid story. We went to the very southern tip of the south island in the middle of fucking winter to go surfing. We got a helicopter to drop us off in the middle of the fucking Fiordlands in the middle of winter to go fucking surfing and so everybody consumed a lot of whiskey just to fucking survive and fuck me it was cold I'd never experienced cold like it. In the water out of the water Hectic story. I literally got chased up a cliff by some fucking sea lions. I hate sea lions now these *Laughs* little bastards they chased me up a cliff and all my mates were just watching themselves laughing at this fucking big sea lion like one day, tear shreds off me chase me out of the water all the way up this cliff. Anyway, one of my mates that was on that trip with us. Something that always stuck with me from that trip was, we were all heavy on the whiskey and he'd said that one of the things that he most appreciated about his dad was that he never actually seen his dad have a drink until his 18th birthday when his dad had a beer with him. And he said, that's one of the most things that he cherished. And I was like, fuck, my kids aren't ever gonna have that opportunity. And that started getting the cogs turning to well, maybe I can still change. 

Danny Heke  30:44  
Well, you know, a disclaimer, I am not fully away from the alcohol, I still have one every now and then

Clinton Schultz  30:53  
 nothing wrong with that Lowe's still has one every now and then. 

Danny Heke  30:56  
Yep. So I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say, stop drinking and going drink alcohol free beer. I just know now that you know, the triggers, effects that can have. And so now, I just don't do it as heavily as I used to. So I just wanted to make that clear, because I know some people are gonna say, I'm sure I saw him at a party last week. And it was, but the alcohol consumption was a lot different than it would have been, you know, 2-  10 or even five years ago.

Clinton Schultz  31:31  
 So it sounds like you've learned to put your boundaries up. 

Danny Heke  31:33  
Absolutely. And that's what it's all about, you know, you put your boundaries up. I mean, you put boundaries up for your kids. 

Clinton Schultz  31:38  
Yep. 

Danny Heke  31:39  
So you need to do it for yourself as well. Take a leaf out of your own book, 

Clinton Schultz  31:43  
Fucking excellent point.

Danny Heke  31:45  
And it brings me back to my kids, again, the focus is on them. So if you're going to teach them something, and make sure you, you live by that aswell

Clinton Schultz  31:57  
Prepare to do it yourself.

Danny Heke  31:58  
exactly. 

Danny Heke  32:00  
 I am where I am now. And I thank, thank you and Lozen for giving me this opportunity to be an ambassador for for Sobagh Beverages and, and Thank you very much for inviting me here today. I have thoroughly enjoyed it. I probably said a little bit more than I should have. But you know, that's what it's all about is having that conversation. 

Clinton Schultz  32:25  
That's it. And, you know, one of the you're out in the mines, and drinking culture is pretty fucking bad in the mines still, and it leads to a whole bunch of problems. So I'm I work with quite a few fellas, and have done over the years who are experiencing a whole raft of problems to do with FIFO living. And unfortunately, alcohol for many of them is the go to, which they quickly realize causes more fucking problems. But they get put on the bag when they go to work and they fuckin then get suspended or lose their job. Or they fuckin do some stupid when they're on the piss and it causes more troubles at home or whatever. Being out there. Do you think it's just as problematic as, as when you first i guess started? Or first Were out there?

Danny Heke  33:14  
 Yeah, it absolutely is. And if you've been watching the news for the past couple of months, you would have seen that a few news articles have come to light. And they've been surrounding FIFO workers and sexual abuse. And I hate to say it, but bhp were the sites that these incidents occurred as a result of that. We now have limitations 

Clinton Schultz  33:42  
that is in the public, isn't it?

Danny Heke  33:45  
Yes, it's in the public. The bhp have acknowledged it and now put processes in place to mitigate any of that. You know, the fallout from it. So now we limited to how much we can drink in the camps.

Clinton Schultz  34:02  
 Yeah. Deadly. 

Danny Heke  34:03  
We have to have a non alcoholic option. 

Clinton Schultz  34:07  
Yep. 

Danny Heke  34:07  
So there's an opportunity there. *Laugh* So yes, absolutely. It's still there. 

Clinton Schultz  34:13  
Yeah.

Danny Heke  34:15  
But obviously, these things are happening now. Where they're trying to stamp it up. So, that's all I can say is

Clinton Schultz  34:23  
 Yeah.

Danny Heke  34:25  
It's been acknowledged and 

Clinton Schultz  34:26  
they're trying to move in a positive direction.

Danny Heke  34:28  
Correct.

Clinton Schultz  34:29  
And what about for Maori when you go home? Have you seen things improve or staying stagnant, getting worse spaces in space of I guess alcohol abuse? 

Danny Heke  34:40  
I think a lot of people from New Zealand will say the same thing is what I'm going to say now. And that is nothing has changed. We go home, we see the same things. We see our cousins, we see our Anuties, Uncles, they've just gotten a little bit more greyer. But the behavior still isn't changed. I might get a bit of I might get crucified for saying that from my own family. But you know, the truth needs to be out there. And there has been changes on a small scale. 

Clinton Schultz  35:16  
Yep. 

Danny Heke  35:16  
But generally, everything's still the same. So it hasn't got worse. And it hasn't got better. 

Clinton Schultz  35:23  
Yeah, 

Danny Heke  35:23  
well, I guess it has got a little bit better. But I haven't been home since the pandemic. 

Clinton Schultz  35:29  
Yep.

Danny Heke  35:30  
 So..

Clinton Schultz  35:31  
 haven't an opportunity to see what impact that that's had on people. 

Danny Heke  35:34  
thats Right.

Danny Heke  35:35  
So

Clinton Schultz  35:35  
So one of the things that happens here a lot in Australia is there's this constant negative spotlight put on Aboriginal peoples and alcohol, as if it's just Aboriginal peoples who have the alcohol problems in Australia, rather than fucking Australia's Got an alcohol problem. But most Australians don't like to acknowledge that Australia has an alcohol problem. Is it the same in New Zealand?  Do you think that there's just as much an alcohol problem for the whole of the country? But it just doesn't get spotlighted in the same way?

Danny Heke  36:10  
Yeah, I hate to say it, but it's exactly the same. Maori will be in the in the media, 

Clinton Schultz  36:17  
yeah. 

Danny Heke  36:18  
in a negative aspect, and it's surrounding alcohol and drugs, 

Clinton Schultz  36:22  
which doesn't help as First Nations peoples of our different lands, it doesn't fucking help us to heal in any shape or form. When all we constantly get is that negative bullshit, that negative spotlight put on us? And, and I know also, I almost think that it's a way for majority populations to escape having to reflect on their own actions by just putting this negative spotlight on others all the time. 

Danny Heke  36:49  
Yeah, well, I, you know, I'm not a specialist in this area. And it's only my opinion, 

Clinton Schultz  36:57  
I fuckin am people. So... *both laugh*

Danny Heke  37:01  
but, you know, if you go and look in the paper, the newspaper and social media, you'll see the exact same thing. In New Zealand that's happening here. So the only time I see, you know, the negative side of the drinking culture here, and it's once a year happens in Melbourne, and horses, that are involved. And then you start seeing the truth come out there

Clinton Schultz  37:29  
I think the truth was really shown though when all the footage started coming out of all the lockdowns being lifted, all we fucking seen across the media for like a two or three week period was politicians going in the first thing they wanted to do when something was opened up was go to the pub, that very much shows where Australia as a nation is at, if the first thing to think about is going to a pub, I can tell you 

Danny Heke  37:53  
or getting your hair done.

Clinton Schultz  37:54  
yea *hahahha* or getting your hair done. I can tell you right now that people in our communities, the first thing they were fucking thinking about was going to the pub,they were thinking about seeing family. 

Danny Heke  38:07  
And same thing, you know, all you ever see or hear is, "Yay, I can go down and see my family." "Yay, I can go and see my nana, yay, I can see my koroua". And but you don't see that. You don't see it. You see it on your own personal social media profiles. But outside of that, you don't see it. So I'm glad that this, this platform is here. Because when people hear this, I think people come knocking on the door and say, What the heck did you say? And I'm gonna tell them exactly what I'm saying right now. It's the truth. And the truth is hard to escape from. 

Clinton Schultz  38:52  
It takes a lot of courage to do that, you know, at times, we do cop flack for being truth tellers. But I don't think that we any societies, any communities, I don't think get the opportunity to really go on a healing journey until we're ready to actually face some of those truths. ourselves. 

Danny Heke  39:10  
Yeah, and, you know, funny, you should say healing because I've been on a healing journey and being here today and talking to you and, and releasing, you know, a lot of those emotions that I've had surrounding the First Nation people I can feel the healing effects already. And so, once again, I keep saying it, I'm thankful to you and to the team, to Australia for the opportunity because, you know, there's a there's a little black box waiting for me, and it could have been via a lot earlier than what we're making, 

Clinton Schultz  39:52  
but we're never too old to go on that healing journey, you know, and to change. You know, one of the people that I most look up to and is Maori elder. Uncle Witty Ashby he used to be the fucking president of black power. And now he's like one of the most renowned people in the Maori wellbeing space. And we're very close, and I love him to death him and his wife. But that, that is a very powerful example of just how much people can grow and change throughout the lifetime. And some of this may not be on such an extreme. But we definitely can all grow and change. But we have to allow ourselves to do that. Wouldn't you agree? 

Danny Heke  40:32  
Absolutely. And if you don't, in the first part of it is acknowledging the fact. So if you don't acknowledge it, then there's no hope for you, because the whole part of the healing process, in my view, is acknowledgement that you have a problem, or there is a problem. And then you can start working to putting practices processes in place to, to fix the problem or to start making making a change. 

Clinton Schultz  41:06  
So what do you do now? Say, you're on that journey? You're trying to make healthier choices, you're trying to make better lifestyle choices, coping choices, what are some of those what works for for Danny Heke now? 

Danny Heke  41:21  
Well, like I said, this this Komatsu, this elder that I'm following around, he has been imparting a whole heap of knowledge to me. And so I've been able to use that knowledge. And it's given me a chance to reflect, to reflect on some of the decisions I made in the past, and how I can use those negative outcomes to my benefit, getting out into the community, talking to people. Once again, the men I come back to the men's group, I sit there, I acknowledged to the wall that I had a problem. And then that then  opens their world, and then they start releasing their problems. And that brings me back to the "to a container" system, where what I've learned from my Komatsu , I can impasse, I can impart that knowledge to the person that I'm dealing with.

Clinton Schultz  42:31  
 it sounds that sounds very familiar to me through a mechanism that we use as Gamilaraay Gomery. But we understand it through the association between father and child Buuba and Gaayili.  And it's that both have equal role in each other's growth. You know, and I only have the opportunity to learn how to be a father through having children. And it's my children's role to push me every day to be a better father, my role is to do everything I can to help with their growth. So we both need each other in equal space for our continual growth at different stages of our life. And it sounds very familiar to what you're yarning about. 

Danny Heke  43:08  
Yes. And you'll find that it's not just our cultures that that utilize that system, you'll find that all the Pacific Island cultures use the same thing. I've been up through Southeast Asia through Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, all those places, and my journeys with the Navy, and they all utilize that same system. And, you know, my Komatsu he has he's really highlighted that fact to me, because prior to now, I never utilize that system even though it was imparted to me when I was a child. I've had the knowledge of it right from when I when I was growing up. But now that he's put it into perspective, for me that's been massive. So that's the mental wellness side of things. And then we come to the physical side of things. Physical training, running, PT, although I've been a little bit slack lately

Clinton Schultz  44:24  
 have Ya hahaha

Danny Heke  44:26  
couple extra kgs 

Clinton Schultz  44:28  
it's Christmas time it's allowed.

Danny Heke  44:31  
its been Christmas all year *both laugh* . So, thats just a sum of the mechanisms I've been using throughout this journey, and more so recently. And so now it's my turn to give back and I'm doing it through the men's groups. And hopefully from there, we'll move into the youth arena. Because obviously our man in the group have their kids, and then we can impart this "te awhina tangata" relationship between them as well.

Clinton Schultz  45:09  
What are some of the positive lessons that or principles as such that that have been been passed that you think it'd be beneficial for people listening to this to, to hear about to know about?

Danny Heke  45:19  
 it comes back to me to that thing, what I said earlier was, "Cannot he get to Carnegie". So, in today's world, we're heavily involved with technology. And so it's creating a world of disconnect. I have been going around to funerals, to aged care homes, and just sitting down there and talking to people. And some of the stuff that comes out of people's mouths, it has a, my "Komatsu" calls it "nuggets" in so I think what he means by that is,  treasures. So people will tell you stuff, they will without knowing it. And you can do with it what you want, you can use it for good, you can use them for bad. But the lesson in it is, is actually using it and using it for good. I know a lot of people who will use this information for for their own self enhancement if you like. But if you can use it to help the people, then that's one of the positive aspects that I've found has helped me hands. And once again, it comes back to the "te awhina tangata", that's how I use that knowledge to help someone else. And I think that's the ultimate fulfillment, if you like is helping people when we all like to help people. But you got to be gotta be thoughtful about whether you really are helping them or you're harming them. 

Clinton Schultz  47:16  
Absolutely, am I only doing this for my own in some shape, or form self gratification, 

Danny Heke  47:23  
yes? 

Clinton Schultz  47:24  
Or is this because I'm actually doing it for someone else? 

Danny Heke  47:28  
Correct. And so that's one of the things that I've learned because we live in a capitalist world where we want to make a buck out of everything we do, you know, even if that means doing nothing. So you really need to reflect, it comes back again to acknowledging where you are in what what you're doing, and using it in a positive aspect. 

Clinton Schultz  47:55  
And I think we can do that all day. Every day, both in our personal and professional lives, is we can constantly be trying to look at what are the opportunities and resources? What's the privilege and power I I've got available to me? And how can I use that in some little shape or form to assist others. And it don't fucking cost you anything and it doesn't hurt. I think people need to realize that the best way to make yourself feel better, is to selflessly do something for someone else. So I guess in that it's not even ever selfless. But it still doesn't hurt that doesn't cost you anything. 

Danny Heke  48:34  
Exactly.

Clinton Schultz  48:35  
 Just knowing that one of the most healing things you can do is help another human being without any expectation of ever getting anything back materialistically from that. The energetic exchange, the spiritual exchange that can happen that's always going to be present. And that's just natural reciprocity. And that's a beautiful thing to be engaged in. But things do tend to go a bit pear shaped when we try and commodify anything and everything particularly in the in the helping space. 

Danny Heke  49:04  
Yeah, totally. And, you know, the, there are times where  it can come in handy. So, I mean, you're a shining example of that. You're helping people make a better decision or an alternative decision without the negative effects. And you're able to make a living out of it at the same time. So there are there are times where it can come in handy. 

Clinton Schultz  49:33  
I'm yet to make a living *both laugh* Slowly, slowly getting there. I'm still having to keep myself involved in my outside capitalist endeavors to pay the bills so that this machine can can keep on strolling through but you know, that is my that is my real desire is one day that I don't have to be in. I don't have to worry about making a living to go out and help people that, you know, hopefully I'll be financially secure enough one day that I can just help people. And that'll be an amazing, I think that's when I'll, you know, people often ask me, When will you know you've been successful. And I think for me personally, it'll be when I get to that point where I no longer have to charge people for healing work, when I can just go out and fucking do it. 

Danny Heke  50:29  
That's beautiful. And, you know, I've been asked the same thing, you know, how do you measure success? And, I don't know, I do not know. So it's alright to not know sometimes. But the thing that you should know is that whatever you are doing, is that you're adding value, not taking it away, you know, you can measure all your like. But if you haven't added any value, then, you know, so instead of working on success add some sort of value.

Clinton Schultz  51:07  
And if those scales aren't tipping in the right direction, then reassess. 

Danny Heke  51:11  
Exactly. 

Clinton Schultz  51:13  
It's funny, I say to people all the time, you know, sometimes people measure, particularly in Western societies tend to measure success on financial status or worth constantly saying mob, you know, have you ever seen a fucking healthy mining magnate? Not a fucking chance. None of them exactly look like pillars of, of healthy living and well being. And so while people might sit there, and they go, Oh, they've got everything available to them. They're filled with their own demons and enemies, no doubt.

Danny Heke  51:47  
Yeah, and you know, everyone's got their own view on wealth. If you, if you were living in the 1800s, say, if you asked one of my elders, if he, if he was wealthy, he would say, the land that I'm standing on is healthy, then I'm wealthy. So, and then you ask that same, you know, someone the same question today? Who knows what, what the answer is going to be. So, someone's vision of wealth as is different to someone else's version in, in the lesson, and that is that we're all different. So you can, you can have all the wealth in the world. But the guy over there with nothing, just living on his bit of dirt, he's wealthy in his eyes.

Clinton Schultz  52:40  
absolutely. You can't buy connectedness. It's the one thing that can't be commodified, can't be purchased. And people struggle with that, sometimes they think they can just do a camp, do a program. And all of a sudden, they'll, they'll have that wealth of knowledge that enables certain connectedness to different facets, different elements, whereas it's just not something that can be purchased, it has to be earned. And it has to be earned through investing time and energy. And that all being driven from a place of respect. So that people feel comfortable actually sharing information and knowledge and experiences with other people. You know, we are here on Kombumerri country, you're up further on about other parts of Yugambeh  area's most this region gets called Little Auckland. Because there's more your mob here *both laugh* then there is mine quite often. What would be your wish for them young Maori fellas growing up in this area? What do you want to see for them moving forward? 

Danny Heke  53:59  
I want to see them have a voice. Because at the moment, there's not there's a lot of disconnect. From what I've seen, from what I've experienced, from some of the funerals I've been to, it just screams of disconnect. I'd like for them to, for us to have a voice and create, create an environment where, where there's, we can reconnect back to who we are. And, you know, one of the first things that they need to do to make that connection is to acknowledge the First Nation people acknowledge that they are visitors here. They do not own the land, because I've seen some of our own people going around as if they are from here. They might have been born here, but they're still not of the land. So, once we get that right, then we can sort our own issues out. And it's slowly coming. I mean, you know, we spoke about it before the indigenous all stars, the Maori All Stars, we have this massive mutual respect for each other. But that's, once again, that's in the media. And, and we do, we do have this muscle of respect, but not as a collective. So once we get that right, then the rest is going to come. Because you guys are going to help us. I said that at the start we had. And that's just in my, my journey. I had this disconnect  from myself. Soon as I got on the, on the plane to come over here, disconnected from my, from my own land. That was the moment that I almost became lost, and have been stumbling around ever since. So if there's anything that I can do now to when we know people do get off the plane, keep that connection in place. Acknowledge that we're only visitors here, acknowledged the First Nation people. And then only then will I be happy with creating a new life here and so, That's what I would like to see. 

Clinton Schultz  56:31  
All starts with stop wanting to be an American Gangster. A lot with a lot the same with our kids, I think, you know, and the reason I asked that is because you got it in you the juvie centers, here in Queensland, or anywhere else probably on the East Coast. The vast majority of the kids in their kids First Nation kids, and then the vast majority of those that are left over are Maori and Pacific kids. And so I think a lot of it does come down to what you're talking about. And that is disconnect, disconnect from our ways of knowing and being that kept us strong and deadly for 1000s upon 1000s of years. And that if we can, if we can learn how to return to and how to to prosper those values in this 21st world that we now live in, then then I think we have a much brighter future for for our peoples moving forward. 

Danny Heke  57:22  
Absolutely. And, you know, you said 1000s and 1000s of years, and you're absolutely correct. And one of the things that I also get a little bit frustrated if you like it. Is the media quantifying? How long first nation people have been? who cares?

Clinton Schultz  57:46  
Yeah, my language is saying since Gamilu Bidi–wii, which is since before the big light? That's a fucking long time. 

Danny Heke  57:53  
Exactly. But they're talking, you know, 60,000 whatever years? 

Clinton Schultz  57:58  
Yeah, 

Danny Heke  57:59  
it's, it's, I don't know, I don't know how to say it. But it doesn't need to be quantified. Because it's been here for a long time.

Clinton Schultz  58:07  
 we should just say a fucking long time

Danny Heke  58:10  
just say that.*both laugh* And my suspicion, they're trying to quantify it to justify colonization. 

Clinton Schultz  58:21  
Well, it allows a minimization of the brevity of our connection. You know, when we say as I said in my language, Gamilu Bidi–wii. So before the big light, that's, we acknowledge, we've been here since the Big Bang itself in some shape or form, maybe not in human form, but in some shape, or form. We've been here since that first big bang, and forever growing with this country with this place. So when we start putting form and shape and timelines around like as hum... as homosapien for X amount of years, it's trying to extinguish our ways of knowing and being as which I've always seen as far more evolved than Western ways of knowing being to be honest. We've got a much more broader understanding, I think of evolution, and connectivity through evolution, then what most people's will like to acknowledge.

Danny Heke  59:17  
Yeah, and that's the point I was trying to bring across you said it superbly. So thank you for that. *luagh*

Clinton Schultz  59:26  
It's been an absolute pleasure having you along for a yawn this afternoon. And I look forward to getting along to one of those men's group if I ever get invited and come in and have a yarn with all the fellas and look forward to taking up the next random challenge that you put on Tik Tok. You're going to be the first one my next distribution list for the mainstream say I'll take you up on it

Clinton Schultz  59:50  
mate. I'll be there with bells on

Danny Heke  59:52  
awesome 

Clinton Schultz  59:52  
Gaba nindu, thank you.

Clinton Schultz  59:53  
Danny and I speak about the important duality in learning processes that exist for our mobs. For me, this is represented by the interwoven learning journeys of Buuba (Father) and Gaayili (Children). A father only learns how to father by observing and absorbing from what has come before, during his experience as Gaayili and then through experience afforded by having children. 

In essence the role of children is to help the father learn to be a better father, and the role of father is to best prepare the child for life including eventual parenthood. It is cyclical and both roles are just as important as the other. As a father of three boys, my roles is to teach them how to be good men. Given each of my sons is very different to the next, I've had to learn how to do this with each of them as individuals as they transverse each warrawi or life stage on their journeys..

The three main roles in life they need to learn are: to protect, to provide and to educate. This starts with 'the self', then 'to other' and eventually 'to place'. They need to understand how to protect themselves and keep themselves safe. They need to practice how to provide love, nourishment and acceptance to themselves first and foremost. And they need to learn how to learn through active engagement with the world around them.

Learning life's warruwi pathways may seem tedious at times but it is puroseful. For instance, when our young Gamilaraay children learn that whenever they step forward, particularly onto a cermony ground representing their warruwi  they must do so left foot first to show respect for 'self as connevted to our creator'. Beyond helping to teach the importance of active participation in ones learning journey, taking this first step into one's warruwi teaches all Gamilaraay people that everything begins with self-activation. What apprears to be a mundance action of stepping onto one's path left foot first or even out of the car left foot first actually requires conscious decision making. Repeating this every time teaches the importance of consistency in knowledgy acquisition and transfer and ownership of action. 

Danny has stepped forward, he is practicing his people's old ways, ways that in so many ways reflect our own. This is allowing him to heal and also for his relationships to heal. I commend Danny for his efforts in self-imporvement that can only benefit others and whole heartedly thank him for owning his actions and for his apologies to everyone he may have hurt or had conflict with. What a lesson to be able to teach others. Gaba nginda dhagaan.