Preston Campbell

EPISODE 6:  Preston Campbell, Dally M medalist, winner of an NRL grand final, and lead the Indigenous Dreamtime Team. The  Preston Campbell Foundation
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Hailing from Tinga in NSW, Preston Campbell is a proud Gamilaroi and Dunghutti and Gumbyr man and former professional rugby league footballer who played for the Gold Coast Titans of the National Rugby League.
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Preston's career highlights include receiving the Dally M medal in 2001, winning the 2003 grand final with Penrith Panthers, and leading the Indigenous Dreamtime Team to victory against the New Zealand Maoris in 2008. He played 267 NRL games, scoring 84 tries throughout an incredible 14-year career. He was the driving force behind the 2010 establishment of the annual NRL All Stars match.
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Since retiring in 2011, Preston focuses on his community work with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, creating the Preston Campbell Foundation and serving as an ambassador for Deadly Choices. Preston is also a partner of the Titans Community team.
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Today, Preston lives on Kombumerri Country (Gold Coast, QLD) with his family. He is a director of the Preston Campbell Foundation and sports apparel company Phyre Apparel.
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The foundation supports Preston's vision of developing programs and opportunities which inspire and mentor participants to achieve their aspirations and dreams by connecting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples with their culture, sense of place, and well-being.

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Instagram @prestoncampbellfoundation
Facebook @Preston Campbell Foundation
Website @https://pcfoundation.org.au
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Disclaimer:  Sobah Life Podcasts may contain explicit content relating to social-emotional wellbeing concerns such as abuse, addiction, self-harm and suicide. If you are likely to be offended or triggered by the discussion of these topics we recommend you do not listen to our podcasts. Sobah Life is not intended to replace professional help.  If you have any concerns about your social and emotional wellbeing, you should consult your doctor or mental health practitioner.  If you are triggered by any of the content of our podcasts and need immediate assistance you can call Lifeline (13 11 14), Beyond Blue (1300 22 4636) or if you are a young person, Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800).  A further list of crisis hotlines can be reached at:

https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/mental-health-services-infographic

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Transcript

Clinton Schultz  0:06  
Yaama maliyaa. Welcome to Sobah Life, a podcast that delves into people's lived journeys from merely surviving through to thriving. We yarn with people from all walks of life, who have been rock bottom and have found the strength, courage and determination to pick themselves up and to keep on going. We'll hear their stories, share their laughs, and shed a few tears while learning a truckload about living along the way. The stories are raw, and real. Sobah Life is proudly brought to you by Sobah Beverages, Australia's first non-alcoholic craft beer company, and is hosted by me, Dr. Clinton Schultz, a Gamilaraay man and psychologist. If anything in these yarns triggers you, and you need immediate help, please ensure to yarn up, you can contact Lifeline, Beyond Blue, or if you're a young person, Headspace or Kids Helpline. 

Clinton Schultz  1:33  
Welcome back to Sobah Life, everybody. Thank you for joining us. For those that is your first time listening into the podcast. Thank you very much for coming along. For those that are returning thank you as well. 

Clinton Schultz  1:43  
Today, we are extremely privileged to have a good friend of mine and I feel extremely privileged in that being able to call this man my friend, Mr. Preston Campbell, along to have a yarn with us for the day. I'm going to hand over to Preston to give us a bit of a rundown on himself, his life, how he grew up what life was like growing up, and wherever the conversation leads. This is wherever the conversation will go. Over to you pressed. 

Preston Campbell  2:13  
It's good to see you brother. It's been been too long. 

Clinton Schultz  2:17  
...Absolutely... 

Preston Campbell  2:17  
Thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it.As you mentioned, we were pretty good friends. I continue a friend learned so much from ya and to honor for me to sit down an have a yarn with ya, always love it. So I'm Preston, Preston Campbell. I'm a Gamilaraay man, I grew up on my mom's country. I was born in Inverell Northern Tableland's New South Wales. But I'm also also the connection to the mid North Coast in New South Wales. So my dad is a Dunghutti engi man, both my grandparents on my dad's side were from the mid north coast but the Campbells originate from the far south coast, down the Yuin mob, down a place called Wallaga Lake, You know. So, I've only visited Wallaga Lake once, and this was in in the morning really, really early. So I don't really know too much about my mob down that way. I just know, there's a big, big population of Campbell's at Wallaga Lake. But, as I mentioned growning up in the Northern Tableland's the thing is one of those unique places, I guess. Very small, like any small country town, you know, it's just, it's like, everywhere, and everything's your playground. I was just one of those typical young boys that just wanted to run around and spend time with his friends and get into a little bit of trouble where, when I can, you know, but for me, now, I've been away from home for Geez over, over 20...20 years. Since 96 I left home but I still missed a place. Yeah, all my family's still there. My Mum and Dad, Sisters, Brother, Uncles, Aunty, you know what is like everyone's still back in Tingha. Tingha, I feel hasn't changed much. I think I've changed a lot. But going back there I still fall back into that Preston that grew up there. You know, I just fall for a place and it's just for me. It's my spiritual home and even though I don't get to go back there all that much when I do go back in is it fuels or recharges me You know, I think Tingha if I remember in Chinese Mandarin is pot of gold...

Clinton Schultz  4:34  
Yea right... 

Preston Campbell  4:34  
So, Tingha the name Tingha actually derived from what Tingha used to be. It used to be tin minning town, hence the name and again, it's one of those unique places where usually you find several different gems. Now you might find a sapphire, might find a diamond, you might find an opal, and there are others and you know. It's pretty rare to find a place like that. The stones or the gems themselves might not cost all that much but it's one of those places that has that ability to be able to bring that forward you still have remnants of minning, minning days. A lot of open cut you know we spent many time in those lime green water holes probably not the best for you. They're good for your skin you know you come in and water really slimy but...

Clinton Schultz  4:37  
... I drank a tea that was that color today and I was saying to people anything that's this color can't actually be good for me. And it actually reminded me of the waters in a lot of those mining town dams and Lakes. 

Preston Campbell  5:41  
Yeah, well Tingha has got a few days around. But childhood that was all we did. If we, any chance we got to go to our swimming holes, you know, I would call one "Blue Lagoon". There's one called "PT'S cut", and there's one called "Baby Dolls", you know, so these are the places where I spent most of my childhood in the warmer months. During winter, it kind of tried us, tried to make us stay inside. I mean, you know how cold it gets up in that high country.

Clinton Schultz  6:09  
COLD. 

Preston Campbell  6:10  
So it's an amazing place, and it still is amazing. And the family is a big part of why I feel it's amazing. 

Clinton Schultz  6:19  
It's a very unique place. You know, and we've had some conversations about this before where I cut through there quite often when I'm driving across country, and it's one of the only places where you'll go and Australia where you still have to give way to a cow. 

Preston Campbell  6:31  
Yeah *Both laugh*

Clinton Schultz  6:33  
No word of lie people 

Preston Campbell  6:35  
Yeah.  It's like, it's like India, they really, cows... cows, they run the town there. 

Clinton Schultz  6:44  
*laughs* that too.. 

Preston Campbell  6:44  
There's plenty grits, you know, they... you can't, you know, we know how much a cow costs. If you hit a cow, like in Tingha, Tingha, it's open, it's a common so if you hit a cow there, it's your responsibility to take care of that cow. You know, my mom actually hit a cow one time, I think it cost nearly $1,500...

Clinton Schultz  7:02  
*Laugh* far out...

Preston Campbell  7:03  
 That's before she had to fix a car, you know, but yeah, they pride a place Tingha. And actually growing up there, I didn't realize that there was a cattle industry, in Tingha

Clinton Schultz  7:13  
Yeahp... 

Preston Campbell  7:13  
In the Inverell area. As I mentioned, you know, growing up there I just. I was just life in my own little world, you know. Just having a great time and just knowing/doing what I knew, and not realizing that there's such a massive industry in the gem industry Inverell is actually known as this the Sapphire City. But then you got the cattle industry that that's really, really, really huge in New South Wales, if not, if not in Australia. So it's just one of those things I realized, moving away from home, I look back and you talk about people talking, maybe there's not too many opportunities in these small towns. 

Clinton Schultz  7:19  
Yeah, 

Preston Campbell  7:22  
it's not to leave, you realize that there may be a few opportunities in terms. If you're willing, if you prepared yourself, obviously through education, to give yourself a chance to maybe get into those roles. You know, I think the biggest, biggest employer of people in Inverell is the cattle industry is Abby's and then next best is the council, you know, so there's definitely a lot of people back home that got the skill to be able to do that. And it's just knowing that it's there. 

Clinton Schultz  8:21  
Yeah, for sure. And it's you know, we're fortunate enough, we get to go and work in communities all over the place together and try and help young people to, to dream and to look at what they want to do with their lives and very much in a lot of those small, regional. And definitely, when we start getting more remote towns, there's a sense amongst youth a lot of the time that they're missing out, they're missing out on the glitz and the glamour, they're missing out on everything that they perceive kids in the city have. So much so that often they're blinded to what they have. They don't realize not just the opportunities and resources that may be available there for their futures, but also just the natural opportunities for freedom and enjoyment and connection that they're present all day every day that I'm sure many a city kid would scream out for. 

Preston Campbell  9:11  
Yeah.

Clinton Schultz  9:13  
How was that for you? Having those connections getting to grow up being in that place?

Preston Campbell  9:17  
Well, yeah, it was amazing, like I said Tingha is one of those places. It could draw you in so much, so much history there. The more I learn about it, the more I see it was like a ...again..., it's a very, very spiritual place for a lot of people in that area. Now I got a lot of family members around here at Tamworth, Moree, Armidale, Guyra, Glen Innes, and a lot of them sort of, that's where they come from that space in Tingha. And, for me, it's just special to know that that's where a lot of people started. And that's where I began my journey, but it was one of those things. You know, I was never gonna leave Tingha 

Clinton Schultz  9:58  
Yeahp...

Preston Campbell  9:59  
I was just one of those boys that I was going to spend the rest of my life in the place. That I was just say comfortable, you know, in everything that I  knew or my family was there, and it was just a safe place for me. So my dream for when I left school was to go in CDP, you know, and I know a lot of people might laugh at that. And you know, I didn't really understand what the CDP was...

Clinton Schultz  10:20  
...for people who are listening because many people won't understand what CDP is listening to this, just give us a quick yawn about what CDP actually is, in many of our communities still today, it exists in communities.

Preston Campbell  10:30  
So what I can understand what CDP was Community Development employment program, so basically, I think they call it Work for the Dole now, but I didn't see it like that grown-up, you know, my mom, my dad, my sister, my brother, my uncle's, my aunties, they all worked on the CDP. And it was just, it was a private place, you know, they got to work alongside each other, the smiles on their faces, and they got to look, make our community look beautiful. And I took so much there was such a sense of achievement in doing so. And that's what I want to do I want to work alongside my mom and dad, you know, but not realizing it is work for the dole. And I don't know, people really think about me, not my mum or dad, they're my heroes, you know, and that's part of the reason why they're my heroes, you know, because they both worked and they worked alongside each other and I did it peacefully, you know...

Clinton Schultz  11:28  
and not for, not for not necessarily for the financial rewards.

Preston Campbell  11:31  
No, no, no just doing it for great outcomes from it

Clinton Schultz  11:34  
...doing it for each other and doing it for the community. And for the sake of having a purpose.

Preston Campbell  11:40  
Yeah, and look the CDP gave us everything we needed you know. When you want to talk about it's not about the outcome, being income, we had everything that we needed. And then we add more. Outside of that, you know, the stuff that we did on country, with each other and the learnings. It was just an amazing, amazing experience for me growing up, it kind of it kind of makes me sad going back there. Now, like I said, I change, but the place hasn't changed much in terms of what issues it has they're. One of the big things that has changed is that there's no CDP there anymore. You know, and I think for a lot of communities might may or may not agree with me, once CDP sort of left town, it didn't give him a sense. It didn't have any purpose. You know, and they, a lot of people who got really comfortable. And it was just easy for these issues to creep into our, in our community into our families. And I'm not saying that's the only reason why. But I know, again, growing up there and seeing how many people worked on the CDP and how our little issues, we had no committee, we still had issues, but they were able to deal with it respectfully, you know, and be able to get along with life. But it's very, very different now, it's very, very different in a lot of communities we traveled to together, I see where there is a community organization that are able to bring people in to be able to work. It does seem like there's their little way forward, you know, whether it's some of the communities that we do travel in that don't have that and don't have the privilege of having something like that, they do have their issues. 

Clinton Schultz  13:24  
So you chose to leave and you chose to leave fairly young walk us through that. 

Preston Campbell  13:30  
Yeah, well, but again, I wasn't gonna leave home. It was just one of those things. So you know, you know, my wife, Lee, were childhood, childhood sweethearts and Lee fell pregnant in her last year of school. So, she was doing a HSC. And I was just sort of mucking around doing some work on the farm that her mum and dad owned. And sort of, I was... I was on welfare. In the same year 1996 just playing some football, an opportunity come up for me to come to the Gold Coast and trial for the Gold Coast Charges then the Gold Coast Chargers. That's where it all sort of started. I mean, at that time I had no idea that I could be a rugby league player and get paid for it. I'll be honest, rugby league is not something I love doing growing up. I did love playing, I did like playing it only because I had that skill and hand-eye coordination. I was quick on my feet. And I did enjoy it. But I never ever thought I'd be rugby league player, professional rugby league player, and that's what kind of got me away but I probably wouldn't have left if Lee wasn't pregnant. So my drive and my reason my purpose for leaving home was I wanted to take care of her and our baby.

Clinton Schultz  14:54  
Yeah, so you found purpose in family? 

Preston Campbell  14:57  
Yes

Clinton Schultz  14:58  
and basically, the family that you are creating.

Preston Campbell  14:59  
It's one of those things too, I was really lucky out of family that sort of said, Go mate, you know, I was "umming" and "arrring", "umming and "arring", but they encouraged me to leave. At times, I thought they just wanted me to go. 

Clinton Schultz  15:14  
*laughs* 

Preston Campbell  15:15  
But they really...

Clinton Schultz  15:17  
 Stop eating our food... get outta here... 

Preston Campbell  15:19  
I think my mum and dad in particular really saw there was an opportunity for me. And I think that was really a big part of it as well. You know, I think if it was like, oh, boy, you don't have to go to stay home. And it would have been easy for me to stay. But because I was so encouraging. And look, I went away. I'm not ashamed to say that I cried myself to sleep for almost nine months, nearly a year. I'll be on my phone on the phone talking to Mum and Dad, "I want to come home, I want to come home" And I'm crying. And they'll just say "son just to get out". So that was very, that was a big thing for me.

Clinton Schultz  15:53  
The Gold Coast aint Tingha. 

Preston Campbell  15:55  
It's not! 

Clinton Schultz  15:56  
So what were some of the challenges in coming from a really laid back beautiful, peaceful country town to the freakin Gold Coast?

Preston Campbell  16:09  
Oh, look, people just as simple as people talk differently. They wore different clothes, they walk differently, they did things differently in terms of, I'll be out at home, I'll be jumping off a cliff in the water. I'll be chasing rabbits chasing kangaroos, to people that are surfing there at the golf course. So it was so different to what I was I used to you know, and there were so many people compared to home. It was very, very scary. Very, very scary. Because for them, I looked different. I sounded different now and I did things differently. So for me to be that minority it was hard for me, for them to engage with me.

Clinton Schultz  16:56  
When you came to the Gold Coast was that the first time that you actually realized I am a minority? I am perceived I am seen and I am treated as different.

Preston Campbell  17:08  
Yeah look that's a good question. When I do think about it? Yeah probably because grown up in Tingha even though I probably was. Our town non-Indigenous indigenous probably 50/50. 

Clinton Schultz  17:21  
Yep. 

Preston Campbell  17:21  
You know so. I didn't feel like a minority in terms of being indigenous. But I didn't feel that coming either. I felt like a minority being from the bush 

Clinton Schultz  17:33  
Yeah right

Preston Campbell  17:33  
And so being very different. Even though I did, I did have people sort of get into me because of my color was mainly because the way I talked 

Clinton Schultz  17:43  
Yep. 

Preston Campbell  17:44  
And the way I did things. I mean I would go to Carrara golf course, which is now emerald Lakes. And I'd go hunting for rabbit on the back nine.

Clinton Schultz  17:48  
*laughs*

Preston Campbell  17:51  
As I just, I just needed to taste that rabbit. A good mate of mine tells his story. He sorta, I told him once because they saw somebody with a spotlight cruising around the back nine of the Carrara nines. So Carrara golf course, I had my battery and I had a sort of a bit of a sporty going around the back knowing because Gold Coast Charges, we had a golf day there you know, they had their corporate days. We had a golf day there and I remember looking back now and I saw rabbits our so I thought was to come back later. So later on, I went back saw one and I drilled him with this three iron

Clinton Schultz  18:32  
*Laughs*

Preston Campbell  18:33  
And he just jumped up like he smiled at me and just ran off. And it wasn't a rabbit obviously it was rabbit a jackrabbit, one of those hairs that is just a little bit bigger. 

Clinton Schultz  18:44  
Yep. 

Preston Campbell  18:44  
But it took me a while to sort of figure out my place in it all. It got a little bit tricky. Because yeah, like I said, I have done things a lot differently in World Rugby League. Things are done at a very heightened level. Sometimes, might say people... I don't know. It's hyper-vigilant, I dont know. But I do things angry. They drink angry. They banter angry. And really, they play football angry sometimes. You know, so it was something that I wasn't used to. Only when you're talking about drinking in the culture or rugby league. When I first come to the Gold Coast, it was very, very different for me. And Tingha some of my best memories of when my family and friends are drinking, you know, but there's good nights where you just fall asleep to Charlie pride song. You know everybody laughing having a good time playing darts, havin a yarn, playing cards, and just having a really good time. It was very, very different on the Gold Coast. Very, very different.

Clinton Schultz  19:56  
Definitely. And it wouldn't have just been the social environment that was different. Obviously, you know you came here to play football, you'd come from playing country football. What was it like having to adjust from country football in Tingha, Inverell to playing professional football?

Preston Campbell  20:13  
Hardest thing was training? Yeah. I mean, when, when it comes to rugby league, I think, or sport in general, for our mob, we kinda, we picked things up pretty easy. I think it's in our DNA, you'd know more about that than I do. But it's in our DNA, hand-eye coordination. We're good on our feet. I think what I struggled with, and with a lot of us, we struggled with the training that the actual physical fitness because you have to get your body in the position where you can take the contact, but you can run for 80 minutes at high intensity, and that you're going to stick to a game plan, which I struggle a lot...

Clinton Schultz  20:49  
...structure... 

Preston Campbell  20:50  
structure, because we play on a whim. You know we play on instinct. And I struggled with the fact that there was structure, I think it was easy, easier, because I started on the wing, not too much structure, structure as a winger, we just had to come in for a run, chase the kick. And that was it. It wasn't until I moved closer to the rock that I kind of had to, I had to teach myself, I really had to take notice of the structure and where I needed to fit in all of that.

Clinton Schultz  21:23  
And it's one of the things I think most people don't realize is just how much, how much effort training, time sacrifice has to go into being a professional athlete, and just how draining at times, that can actually be particularly for young people. Like we've got people, you know, you and I both do work within clubs and within footy Still today, and it just seems that the kids are getting younger and younger, coming through and being sort of put on contracts being managed. And it just seems like so much pressure to be putting on 14/15-year-olds, what was the pressure like for you of I guess the weight of expectation, to perform, to turn up to do that to undertake that structure and to be able to process it and play to it day in day out.

Preston Campbell  22:22  
Mate, I just had a goal every day just to do my best. And I know that might seem so simplistic because I know when you talk about goals, you have to have certain goals, and you have to have longer set goals. But for me it was about is turning up and do my best every day. And even simpler, if say we're doing a drill and say we're doing 100-meter sprints, or 10, 20, 30-meter sprints, I'd line up to that line. And every rep or every set, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna do my best. And that was it. I kept it as simple as possible. And that I think I didn't have much pressure on myself, because I'll always telling myself, as long as you do your best mate, as long as you do your best because there was a time where I sort of fell into the trap. I think they call it small man syndrome. There's a lot of that going around in rugby league still today in sport in general, but because I didn't, especially in today's terms are probably don't fit the profile to be a rugby league player, 

Clinton Schultz  23:30  
You're the least angry little man I've ever come across Preston. I can tell you that *both laughing*

Preston Campbell  23:34  
It was all in my head, you know what I mean? So even if you look back on some of my footy games, I did play angrily, because I just didn't like people calling me small, you know, and I didn't like people telling me that I wouldn't, wouldn't make it in the game because I was too small, you know. So, like, I used to compare myself with bigger players. And when I couldn't lift the same weight as them, I'd get angry at myself, or the fittest players, or the fastest players, if I couldn't run as far as them or as fast as them, I'd get angry at myself. You know, and I didn't feel really good about myself. It wasn't until I sort of, again, bought it back, keep it simple. Just do your best mate. Be the best you can be, lift as much as you can lift, run as fast as you can run and run as far as you can run, you know, and it took me a while to sort of be comfortable, become comfortable with that. Now, I know a lot of young people struggle with that not just in sport, just just in general life, you know, I don't look as pretty as her or not as ripped as him, you know. So, for me, it was just about doing the best I can do. And I was lucky to sort of work that out early in my career. Because I know there is a lot of young men, in particular, that struggle with that, and it's enough,  well it turned out that it was enough for me.  You know, I played 14 years, and it worked for me So, it does that work,

Clinton Schultz  25:03  
I think that's the best advice that you could actually give to young people who are going down the path of not just professional sport, but whatever they actually want to achieve is stop comparing yourself to everybody else, and just focus on self-improvement and doing your best. We live in such a competitive based society. And unfortunately, it's instructed into us from school, you know, school is based on individual learning and merit-based notions of acceptance, to be honest, you know, and yeah, which can be really difficult for kids, I witnessed this with, you know, my youngest boy, he's only five years old, he was only four and a half when he started school. And he hated school for the first semester because he couldn't keep up with the other kids, some of them who were almost a complete year older than him. Now, at that age, that's a massive difference. So he was constantly feeling bad that he couldn't read as good as the five and a half-year-olds, even though he's four and a half, or that he couldn't do the math sums that the five and a half-year-olds are doing to the point Where's already at four and a half years old, he was like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to do this. And luckily, now that he's started to get a little bit older like he's, he's over five now. And he's managed to start to be able to read and start to be able to do the sums that the kids were doing at his age previously. He's starting to feel better about engaging with school. But the system puts that pressure on such young people that it's toxic.

Preston Campbell  26:37  
Yeah. I think it's the same in rugby league as well. I mean, you compare yourself again, when somebody lifts heavier than ya, run faster than ya, and is bigger than Ya. But I think sometimes you just get to bring it back. I mean, there is improvement to be made. You know, in your boy, there's improvement to be made, if they can focus on him, and work on what he needs to work on, 

Clinton Schultz  27:01  
and what he enjoys. 

Preston Campbell  27:02  
Yes. And whatever interests him you mean, that's, I think that's what I needed to do. I needed to work on getting as strong as I can be, and getting as fit as I could be, you know, and when I got to the point where I felt I couldn't get any stronger or any fitter. I was like, well, now I can play football. And now I can enjoy it knowing that I've done my best

Clinton Schultz  27:24  
was the other key ingredient. actually bringing yourself back to acknowledging your positive attributes, like you were naturally gifted as a ballplayer. 

Preston Campbell  27:33  
Yeah, 

Clinton Schultz  27:34  
whereas other people have to work really hard on that. Catching a ball could be freakin hard for any rugby league player. It's...

Preston Campbell  27:40  
Yea, well I don't know how to explain it. I think I probably didn't take it for granted. But you don't realize it. Because again it's in our DNA, it's something we pay off instinct. It's something that when you come into a structured, structured world, it kind of you forget about it. I've worked so hard on trying to do what's right footy by the team. I forgot that every now and again, I could probably do something outside the structure that can actually benefit the team. But I was so scared to do on a chip and chase. I was too, so afraid of trying to intercept a pass, you know, and because when I tried it, people are getting into me, you know, so... the more people that got into me, I kind of just sort of tucked it away, you know, so I'll be kind of a different player, some might say little less individual more as a team player. And I tell myself that but I know there were times where I didn't enjoy football as much because I couldn't do what I knew instinctively.

Clinton Schultz  28:43  
So let's go to some of those periods where you didn't enjoy football so much. So you left the Gold Coast. Where'd you end up?

Preston Campbell  28:49  
So I went to Sydney. The Gold Coast Chargers finished up in 1998 at the end of that season, so I was just happy to go back home, and I had an opportunity to go to Sydney to play with the Cronulla Sharks. So the last game of the season in 98, we played against the Cronulla sharks at Carrara. I had a pretty good performance that night. And I guess that's why, you know, the club John Lang and Steve Rogers, wanted me to go down and seek an opportunity. I went down on a one-year contract. It turned out to be a pretty good move. I thought, you know, to again, I think the Gold Coast was a great stepping stone to go from here to Sydney. I think living on the Shire out at Cronulla was probably a good move in terms of Gold Coast has beaches, but as different community compared to the...  if it was right in, say around Redfern, I probably would have struggled with that both Lee and I but moving to Cronulla Beautiful place, love their Rugby League, and I just fit in there really well. First year in 99 I got player of the year for the reserve grade team played a couple of games in NRL here and there. 2000 It was the same player of the year in reserve grade, in a few games in the top grade, here and there. But it wasn't till 2001 I kind of had my breakout year and unfortunately, Matty Rogers had a knee injury of that year, he was on the wing. And that's where I got my start and I think I played every game that year. Started on the wing, and ended up in half-back 2001 was arguably my most exciting year in terms of the way I played rugby league and the height that I sort of went to. It was pretty exciting. But it was also pretty scary as well. Having so many people, and so much adulation people patting me on the back and my head was so big. It just felt so happy that people, people could recognize my skill and not just that 

Preston Campbell  31:01  
and Don't be coy about it. What did you actually achieve that year?

Preston Campbell  31:05  
So I was named best and fairest player that year. They call, which is Dally M so 2001 Again, I enjoyed it so much. I played some football. I played some instinctive rugby league. You know, I was on the back of a great forward pack. The team that we had that year. You know looking back now, we probably should have done more with the season. We had the five-eight Adam Dykes was, He for me, I thought he was going to be the best and fairest player of the year. He was just amazing. Amazing rugby league player. David Peachey, Marty Lang, Jason Stevens. All these guys, a forward pack that just didn't relent. They just went forward for you. And a lot of those guys grew up in Cronulla, a lot of Cronulla juniors. So to see them, enjoy them play rugby league alongside each other, and for the community of Cronulla it was just amazing, you know, and I felt like I needed to play my part, you know, and they were so welcoming, they were so welcoming and it ended up being a... I mean, we finished one game short at Grand Final. You know, Andrew Johns, and the Newcastle Knights. We meet them in the elimination round the week before the grand final in Parramatta. They were the team to beat and Newcastle went on to beat Parramatta in 2001 back of some Andrew Johns brilliance. And it was like we could have done that we could have been there but like I was really, really, really happy about that because I was so caught up in myself and my rise of, rise to fame sort of come around so quickly. I didn't realize Jonny Lang was leaving at the end of that year. There was talking about it, but I was like, and then he's gone, and then it was so much changes that come about when Jonny Lang left after the season and a bit of a struggle. I mean Jonny Lang, I'd tell people I love Jonny Lang, I respect him a lot. He's a great man, his community man family man, he's done a lot for me as a rugby league player, but also personally, and I didn't realize that at the time. You know, that he was great support for me and my family. And when he was gone,  this new group of people come in and they kind of, how do I put this nicely... what like they come to the do the job that they were bought into do, to win games. You know, they've gone off and they've designed a way to win a competition for the Cronulla Sharks. And my role in that was very, very, very different to the role that I was used to, you know, so I struggled with that. 2001 I think the Dally M points and it's not about numbers and that it's not how I... sort of 2001 I was like 32/ 33 Dally M points. 2002 I had one Dally M point. 

Clinton Schultz  34:02  
Yep

Preston Campbell  34:03  
You know, So it should tell you how, how terrible I went in 2002.

Clinton Schultz  34:09  
So there was a bunch of changes, and they've obviously had an impact on your performance, but how else did they impact on you?

Preston Campbell  34:16  
Um, I think firstly, it impacted on my family. Because remember, the reason I played football reason I left home was to support my family. So when these roles when this was new change come into place, my first thought was, well, am I going to be able to do that? 

Clinton Schultz  34:35  
Yep. 

Preston Campbell  34:35  
If I can't do that, I won't be able to support my family. And that's what I struggled with most. It wasn't so much about the positional change, like again, rugby league, not something I loved all enough to sort of worry about it all that much but what I did love was my family. So I struggled. All those thoughts, you know, little man syndrome, all those thoughts of "Preston you're too small, you're not big enough, you're not fit enough, you're not strong enough. So you probably won't be able to make it in rugby league". And those negative thoughts, they just they read their ugly head. And I don't know. I mean, it's obviously research reason why that happens, you'd be able to explain that. But all I can say is that I had a conversation with the incoming coach, and I went away from that feeling all sorts of emotions or feelings, I was angry. I was scared. And I just didn't know how to deal with it. On my car ride home I'm just I think I was like on autopilot. I just drove home, I was there. So that year for me, rugby league terms, but life terms was probably the worst year of my life. Because it was just, yeah, just so much confusion. So much anger, so much. So many things reared the head. And I did things that I never, ever thought I'd do. And I look back and it's how? how did this happen? You know, so going from literally the best player in the competition. To reserve grade back in reserve grade again. I felt like I was failing my family. You know? So that's where it ended up?

Clinton Schultz  36:20  
And just how problematic just how dark did that get for you?

Preston Campbell  36:25  
Well, September 2001, it was actually, I think it was the night before was the same night as 911. I was getting presented the Dally M Medal, and then two days before Christmas, in 2002. I didn't want to live anymore. You know. So, for me, it was over 12 months, I just changed so much. And world around me the way I looked at it, the people that were in it, people that I once loved. I didn't even see sometimes. And I neglected. You know, and it wasn't anything sinister. But it was that emotional neglect, especially towards my family. Everything I played rugby league for I was neglecting, and I wasn't there them. I was a ghost of myself. At home, I was a shell of myself. And I know, when looking back now, Lee, she knew that there was something wrong with me, oh, there was something going on. And I just didn't know how to express what was going on. And because she loved me, she constantly asked me "what's going on, please talk to me". I saw it as nagging. And I just told her to go away. The more I told her to go away, the less she asked me what was going on, the more our relationship sort of floated away. We're eventually she just well felt like she had no choice. But to leave. At the time. I hated her for it. You know, I'm here doing all this for you, and the kids. And you just up and leave and I hated her for it.

Clinton Schultz  38:02  
weren't able to see your role in the situation or the role that you'd played in actually driving a wedge between yourself and your family. And at the end of it leading to Lee to make a decision for what she felt was in the best interest for herself. And your kid

Preston Campbell  38:22  
Yep... whether it was a good decision or not. I mean, I think it was, well, she needed to leave.

Clinton Schultz  38:29  
Sometimes we need those real heavy kicks in the ass. You know, when we're not going to listen. And we're too stubborn. Sometimes we need things to occur that really help us to put things into perspective. Sometimes we need to hit rock bottom for us to actually put things back into perspective. We hope people don't get to that space because it can be fucking dangerous, as we all know, and, and it got very dangerous for you.

Preston Campbell  38:53  
 I just put the blinkers on, you know, she wanted to help me. And I just didn't know how to let her in. So, Attorney ended up, she felt like she needed to take the kids and leave that she didn't feel safe. And at the time I edited for but looking back, I totally understand why she had to go. And again, it's not something I'm proud of. I'll spend the rest of my life making up for it. But, you know, we see a lot in our communities, not just our indigenous communities, but so many families are breakup because, well, we just don't let each other in. We don't communicate. And for me that was that's where it all fell down for me. I mean, it's not the new coach coaching staff coming in and changing the rules. He can do his job when competitions was not it, was the fact that I wouldn't let her in. You know and wouldn't get that help that well. I didn't know I need

Clinton Schultz  39:53  
so we get the opportunity to work with lots of fellers. We do a lot of work, you know in the space of men's well-being beard in sport beard In industry, is it something that you've that you actually witness in a lot of fillers is that struggle, that internal struggle that they create? Because they don't know how to open up?

Preston Campbell  40:12  
Definitely. Definitely. And look, it's a thing. I mean, we look at Rugby League plays as well. I mean, they're big, they're strong. They're fast. They're courageous, they're brave. You know, so to be able to talk about your feelings, and it's not something Well, I definitely wasn't used to. So I didn't, I didn't understand the importance of it. You know, for me, it was about being as strong as I can as fast feet. And that's all that mattered. When this came about, it, just it just rocked me. It just rocked me in and I couldn't get through it. And I was like, Well, I can run this fast on this feed on the strong. I can take a hit. I can get back up. But why can't I get through this?  And it hit me harder than anything else has ever hit me before, you know, and it was just there constantly, is there constantly, so you do see it a lot. And I think for a lot of our young men and our young women, we just put blinkers up. And for me, I just felt like the world was against me, the coach came in and he was brought in to be against me, Lee, she was against me, my family, my friends. They were against me, my teammates. They were against me. But all they wanted was the best for me. 

Clinton Schultz  41:32  
So you can reflect back now. And you could say that was just 

Preston Campbell  41:35  
...Yes...

Clinton Schultz  41:35  
a perception. That wasn't reality. It was just I perceived everything was against me. But yeah, when you're in that cloud, it's very hard to determine between what's the reality and what's the perception? Yeah. How'd you come out the other side?

Preston Campbell  41:47  
Well, as I mentioned two days before Christmas, I didn't want to be angry more. I'd gone up to Balena from Penrith because by this time, we'd move from Cronulla out to the Penrith, and I thought things would be okay at there, Jonny Lang was coach. You know better to be around people you know, around people that are supportive of you. But I was already a broken person. By the time we got out there. It had already kicked in. Lee, she resented me she didn't like me. She didn't like the person I was and we were out there for not even a month, maybe two. And she'd gone. you know, she went to Balena to stay with her mum and dad. And as I mentioned I just hated her, I was on the phone every night crying to her please come back, please come back like this lovesick puppy dog you know where not realize I'm making it worse, making it worse for myself because the more I rang her the less of a chance I was gonna have a chance. And the more she didn't like me, you know so...

Clinton Schultz  42:54  
and the more energy you're putting into begging the less energy you're actually putting into focusing on what do I need to change and how do I do that? 

Preston Campbell  43:01  
Yes. And it's looking back now I'd totally obviously I haven't this information have went back I would have done it so much, so much differently. But you know, it's just one of those things we all can wish we could do but we just can't I But I went to went to Ballarat. But as the days before Chris, I wanted to get to see my kids. I wanted to see Lee. I wanted to see if she was interested in getting back together. I got up there. And the look she had on her face when she first saw me it was like That's it. I got no chance whatsoever. Yes, I spent a couple of hours with the kids jumped in my car, and ended up in hospital. Then my cousin went, he came got me from out of Lismore base hospital drove me back to Penrith because my car was busted up I was busted up and he spent a week or two with me. And it was good havin him around, you know, it took, kind of took my mind off it and but still in. Nobody knew that I was struggling. Because I told everyone that it was an accident you know. I didn't know how to tell people what had happened. I didn't understand what had happened. But ummm got back to Penrith. Spend a couple of weeks with him. Then he left with his family, and here I am left alone in this house again. And look, I'd never ever thought about harming myself. Even when I did end up in hospital, harming myself when you're talking about mental health. We talked about suicide. It was nothing. I knew nothing about it growing up at home, in my home in my school, community, even in rugby league. I knew nothing about it. So I didn't realize I was struggling with it. So there was kind of another it was a half-hearted attempt is a half-hearted attempt. So...

Clinton Schultz  43:09  
which is a good thing!

Preston Campbell  44:50  
Yes. It was only half-hearted because I was interrupted, you know. And we talked about Johnny Lang again. He doesn't know this story. It's a day off And I wanted to harm myself again. I just didn't want to be around. And I'm sort of midway through it. And Jonny Lang is knocked on the door, you know, and I found the energy or the strength to get up to open the door. And I was just so happy to see him. Johnny Lang didn't say too much and anybody that knows him, he loves a yawn, Johnny. He kind of just directed me towards him. And he said, Let's go for a ride. Let's go for a drive. And that was the only thing he said. And again, I love Johnny  Lang I respect him, didn't argue. Changed out of my jammies, jumped in the car. And we proceeded to drive in Johnny Lang end up taking me to see a counselor. And I was like, "hell, why?" It's because I thought it does such a good job. I put so much energy into hiding the way I was really feeling. I just don't know how he realized I mean, car accident, or crashing your car into a tree. That's a big, big thing. But...

Clinton Schultz  46:07  
As is a lapse in performances, it's a coach's role to be able to see those lapses in performance to try and determine what is that all about? Is there a physical nibble going on? Is there a mental nibble going on? So I daresay would have had more of an inkling than you're aware of him being aware of.

Preston Campbell  46:24  
And I'm very, very happy for it. Because that was really the beginning of my journey, then understanding was  I filling it, for me was the biggest thing. Yeah, being confused and not understanding why I was feeling the worse feeling. That was what drove me mad. Yeah, it drives me mad. I'll got angry. You know, somebody said having a companion. I went and bought a dog, Rumball beautiful dog. And nearly kicked him that many times. But he was good for me as well. But to see the psychologist, counselor the first question, just really resonated with me. And I arched up a little bit because I'm like how the hell did you know that? I haven't told anybody. And then I kind of just, a flood of emotion, I started crying. And that's where it all began. You know. So we just we, we had conversations. Now, I talked a lot. She just listened. And I was like, Yeah, so like a breath of fresh air.

Clinton Schultz  47:29  
how important do you think it is to just have people? As you put it? Listen. People want to speak to us all the time. People want to give us their two cents. 

Preston Campbell  47:38  
Yeahp... 

Clinton Schultz  47:39  
 much of a difference? Did it make just having certain people in your life that we're willing to just be silent? And listen?

Preston Campbell  47:48  
I don't know how to explain it. I think the magic is in the talking. You have somebody who listens as a patient. I mean, what are they actually doing? They just listening? For me the magic was, the more I spoke, the more I thought. And the more I thought I'm like, well, maybe I should try that. Or maybe I shouldn't do that. You know, so then I'd speak that thought and she gave Yes. Or she goes, No. So it was like, I was coming up with ideas or answers on how to actually improve my life. And she was guiding me. I don't know if that makes any sense. But that's what it was like, for me. She didn't have too much input in terms of advice. It was like, I think because I was so forthcoming in talking about how I was feeling it made it a little bit easier for it to do a role. So make any sense.

Clinton Schultz  48:51  
Absolutely. Makes sense. And I think it's a, it's a really important part of the conversation for us to be having is particularly with fillers who are struggling is that that it is okay to speak up that it is okay to be vulnerable, and that there is people out there who are going to be willing to listen, but we can't expect them to do the work for us.

Preston Campbell  49:13  
That's right. Yeah. And it says you made me feel. I think that's how God made me because I felt empowered.

Clinton Schultz  49:22  
Because as long as I have to do the work for you, that means you don't have to do anything, which means you're less likely to change. Whereas if somebody is just willing to sit there and help guide, instruct, same as coaching, yeah, coach's role isn't to make you catch the ball, or make you run faster. The coach's role is to help guide you on how you may be able to do those things better and improve day in day out. And sometimes I think people are a bit afraid of engaging with the process of counseling because they think it's going to just be another person who's going to tell them what they have to do. Whereas finding a good counselor who's just willing to sit and listen to you narrative, listen to your story, and just help God where guidance is needed. But it's up to you. It's up to, as you put it, it's got to be self-driven and therefore leads to self-empowerment.

Preston Campbell  50:12  
Yeah. And I hear people, yeah, we do a lot of work in this space here and people not being able to find that, that counsel that they connect to, but what's the common denominator? Is it a counselor? Or is it yourself? And these are the questions I asked, you know, I don't myself, I was pretty lucky to have a counselor that I got along with, and was able to, and this was the first council I've seen. And I feel really lucky after hearing stories of other people's experiences. And, but that's what it comes down to, I think,

Clinton Schultz  50:50  
How important was that first experience? 

Preston Campbell  50:55  
very important, Very important. I was scared. I was scared. I mean, if you can imagine. It was like a, she was she was like a big, dark figure. That's how I saw her. And I walked in it is cold, dark room. And I said on this cold tear,

Clinton Schultz  51:11  
can be very uninviting environments at times the old counseling rooms.

Preston Campbell  51:16  
And then she asked a question, and it was just everything lit up. And so that's how I describe it, because that's how I felt. I felt lighter. And I felt comfortable. I don't know whether it was because I was so desperate. I was in a place where I just had no other options. But I was just so open, open to the conversation.

Clinton Schultz  51:40  
If that hadn't been a positive experience for you. Do you think you would have continued to engage? And the reason I raise that is, and I think it's important for anybody who may be going into the fields of working in mental health is that they understand how important it is to create a positive experience. Yeah. Because if that first experience isn't positive, there's not much encouragement to come back for a second.

Preston Campbell  52:03  
Well, I guess he's and then environment. But even notice the words are coming at him as at the time in which he delivered in? Yeah, I don't know, I can't really answer that question. I mean, because again, I feel like I was lucky in the first experience that it kind of just falling into place for me. Like, it wasn't just the conversations he gave me. She gave me things that I needed to do, and go away and work on. But they were more like suggestions. She made me feel like always, I was the one always in control. Yeah, you can do if you want. And, again, because I felt like I was in such a desperate position. I just tried everything. And it turned out to be good for me. Yeah. Some months ago, and boy, I've left Lee Lana left kids alone. And turns out that she missed me in conversation with each other. And also Mrs. Mica, Galvin, um, I'm a different person now. And let's just talk about what happened. And we'll see what happens. Lee said, she always loved me, but she just didn't like the person I turned into you. And I feel quite lucky that she's a strong woman. I mean, we're lucky to have very, very strong women in our lives in August. Yeah. So grateful that you give me a chance to explain. So I went a long way around experience. What I learned from it was amazing. I think that's what brings me to the hour do my passion in community, not just in the summation, wellbeing space. It's, you know, the physical and the spiritual and the avatar. It's something I'm starting to be open to. It really gave me more than just being a rugby league player. After that, I enjoyed my football so much like, notice as a rugby league player, like I still played well. There's no one best player in the comp 2000 to 2003 premiership winner with the pennant Panthers, the I say, my football and my life would just seem like they were in balance. And I was just enjoying it. You know, and I wanted to share that with people. Not my stories specifically, but I wanted to share how good it felt. So for me, it's not about we're not talking about whatever table itself and in Rugby league is not saying much about bar or achieve or lie, what I what level I got to, it's how I did it. That's what I want people to know. That's how I did it. And I think that's what's most important. It shouldn't be at attention. It should be intense, making a difference in the community. So that's, that's how I've always looked at it from like, it was still a bit of a struggle. 2003 2004 Early 2005, I started feeling like, well, I'm past this, I can manage my life, you know because I still went until counselor. But it took me probably two, two and a half years to get to a place where I feel confident to be able to look after myself in manager. So we've,

Clinton Schultz  55:17  
we've got to spend lots of time together over the years, and we get to have some pretty in-depth conversations about some out-there things that most of the world probably wouldn't even consider thinking about nevermind trying to process and a lot of that stuff has had, you know, we both come around, we're very passionate about, about our heritage and, and about our culture and our mob in our country. How much of a role has getting back to and having the opportunity to really start to learn more of the in-depth notions of culture had in your healing journey.

Preston Campbell  55:50  
A lot of think for a lot of us we have this crisis in identity. Whether, whether it's because of Kelly's skin, whether you the way you look, whether it's cultural circles that you run with, I struggled a little bit growing up, I didn't think I was Aboriginal enough, because I couldn't dance, speak language curves or control boomerang or play did, although because I couldn't do that. Well, I'm not Aboriginal enough, you know, so. But in tinga, a lot of Aboriginal people, what they were doing was some stuff I didn't want to partake in if that makes any sense. And I said that some of the issues in our community come about because of drugs or alcohol. And I didn't want to do that if that meant being Aboriginal well, so you can kind of understand what are stuck in the middle? Yeah, definitely. So it was not a lot of in terms of traditions, culture, and language, dance, it wasn't all that grown-up. So I kind of struggled a little bit. When I went away as a rugby player. That's what I was a rugby league player. But on a journey, especially in the back end of my career started doing a lot of I call it community work at some footy clubs, call them play appearances. But the stuff you actually do outside of your requirements in, it was great, right? For me,

Clinton Schultz  57:24  
that's a really important distinction you've made there. And it's something that I've noticed quite a few times. And it's the distinction between community work, which we associate with having to do something having to work, and player appearances, which means there's a perception that you've fulfilled your role once you just turn up. Yeah. And I've, I've been at several Junior clubs where I've seen players at different times who have turned up. And you can tell whether or not they're there, from a perspective or from a position of community work, or player appearance. And that makes it makes a world of difference in terms of the experience for them young people who just want to engage.

Preston Campbell  58:06  
Yeah, definitely. And look, it's one of those things we spoke about before. No, countless times. I look at these young fellows, they are young, they don't know how to approach it sometimes. But as a league, I think we can do things differently in terms of prepping them for that sort of stuff. We talk about play appearances or playing engagement. For a lot of them, they're still young people themselves in life, you know, so but we do need to give them some sort of tool to go out. So that experience for them young fellows in the clubs that they're visiting is a great experience. Yeah, they both benefit from it, but it just, it's always had that, that tag the player parents, you just go out and you just show your face. No, but it has to be more than that. And like you, I've seen young people walk away disappointed because somebody that they've watched on TV that they idolize, just didn't want to spend any time with them, or didn't give them the time of day

Clinton Schultz  59:08  
and very different to the experience that you know, I've always admired, really admired how yourself Dahl Thompson these days, Jamal Fogarty, how you go beyond engagement and you actually do your work, you're there and you're working with the young people or with the community, whatever you use, put the effort in. And I think there's a lot that can be gained from garnering those that are doing really good in the space to help guide and mentor those that in a more positive way to be able to do that moving forward. Yeah.

Preston Campbell  59:42  
And what I found more engaged or got into in that stuff. I actually enjoyed my rugby league more. You know, I enjoyed life. But when you're around young kids, especially young kids, I've got so much energy sometimes it's frustrating because I have so much energy like slow down please but

Clinton Schultz  1:00:01  
particularly where we go out to,

Preston Campbell  1:00:02  
yeah. But that energy remains around all night, they haven't, they have that energy. And we, if we can harness it somehow and put it to good use, it's, it's, it's gonna make so much difference to our communities to our footy club or sporting clubs. So I find that discipline is very, very important in terms of being around these young kids. And that's why 40 is good. You go out to do your drills, you have a bit of structure, there's discipline in that, but it's energetic as well. Yeah, sometimes you just get a little run-around. So it's, it's understanding what's appropriate at the time, I think. And, again, I think I've been lucky because I've been in that space for a little while. And I've kind of worked out ways to, to interact with people more positively, you know, and it's not just about me going out and challenge drills, getting more building skills, it's about getting to know the people and understanding, you know, some of our sporting clubs, it doesn't matter whether it is rugby league, it could be any sport, you know, they're beacons to our communities, you know, and I do a lot for our community, I'd say I'm big on, sometimes we'll get down as a player to have participant we'll get into a supporter, our club, but a club gives us something as well. And that's, that's how I say, you know, this is this community club gives me something as a rugby league player, just by going out and buying a ticket to another TV on, they've given me some, this is what I need to do. You know,

Clinton Schultz  1:01:39  
what if we take it back to our ways of processing thing is about really putting in place that that notion of reciprocity. Yeah, you know, understanding that we always have an opportunity to receive through giving, yeah and that it won't always just be bimodal. Sometimes it goes around and around about, and we can give to a certain sector or a certain individual or to a certain club or a certain organization, and we may not get exactly back what we're hoping or what we thought straight from that entity. Yeah, but we can always go and charge up somewhere else, charge up positive way, people.

Preston Campbell  1:02:13  
That's right. Look, I didn't understand that until I met you, I saw you speak one time. And I was like, Man, this fella, he knows, he knows me really well, I haven't even met this like before. But you talked about reciprocity, it's just something I think, that we do, not understanding the importance of delving right into what it means. But it's just one of the things I think, as a human being, in general, that's what we, we do, you know, maybe few things jump up here and there to allow us to that blocks, as allowed to be able to do that sort of stuff and give to community, you know, and for a lot of our communities, causes issues in a lot of our communities can take advantage, although we are giving, you know, when he spoke about being able to get reciprocity from some or take from somewhere else, I didn't really understand that until I met you because I'll be working so hard on these relationships to make them work. But I just felt like, I'm not getting anything in return. And I felt so depleted, you know, energy, my spirit was I needed charting. But then I was like, I can go for bushwalk you know, or I can just spend time with my family, my kids, I can go play the guitar, things that make me feel good. Music give me something that made me feel good. Going for a walk on country, give me something you know, so it wasn't so much to be at all given this fella. He has to give back to me. It's like, all it'd be nice to get something back from him. I needed to find it somewhere else. So you make a really good point. You know, for a lot of us money has relationships where there is and we've all been in a relationship where we felt like we burnt an island. We just don't know how to manage it. For me, you're right, the best way to manage it is to go and find these, these methods or and if that's the right word to use, but these mechanisms to make yourself feel better, you own it. It's the simple stuff that I think it's allowed me to feel better when I'm feeling a little bit depleted united, spend time with family go for a swim, stuff that doesn't cost any money.

Clinton Schultz  1:04:28  
And it's one of the things that as you know, that I'm really passionate about is trying to help people understand the ways that as First Nations peoples we've always looked after ourselves and looked after each other and looked after country and a lot of that has actually been able to work through us practicing true cyclical reciprocity, and understanding that I have the ability to give whenever I choose. And I've got to be I've got to allow myself to do that without an expectation that there's something coming back. Yeah, I've also got to allow myself when I can feel on becoming depleted to go and do those things that allow me to charge up. So you know, we've had yards about this. And, you know, some of the Crazy things I do say some of the work I do is pretty heavy, and I get pretty depleted at times. And it's well known that at times, I've been known to go and run up a mountain and just scream my head off like an absolute lunatic to like, completely drain all that negative energy out of me that I'm happy to take that negative energy and some of the work that I do, I don't have the right to go and put that on my family. It's my role and responsibility to go and do something with that in a positive way that's going to allow me to return home in a more positive space. So I'll go up that mountain, I'll scream like a lunatic. I don't care if 100 people walk past they're going, Oh my God, he's a lunatic. Because that's not mine. I don't really give a shit. But I'll really focus in on how beautiful everything is around me. And that will charge me back up. I don't need anybody else to give me that. I have to allow myself to engage in that. What do you do these days to charge yourself up? Because you are one of the most kind, compassionate, giving, loving, accepting human beings I've ever come across? And I know because I work in this space to that at times it's fucking

Preston Campbell  1:06:14  
tolling. It is yeah.

Clinton Schultz  1:06:17  
What do you do to charge yourself up, Preston?

Preston Campbell  1:06:20  
Oh, bushwalks. Again, spending time with friends and just having meaningful conversations. You know, nothing too deep. Nothing that you can't handle like playing the guitar.

Clinton Schultz  1:06:32  
No COVID conversations.

Preston Campbell  1:06:34  
I try to stay away from those conversations, it's yeah. Look, I'm lucky to have two great-granddaughters now, you know, so? Yeah, it's just a different level of appreciation when you got grandkids you know, they are feel so lucky. So lucky to have a family like, as I do. And I think it all just stems from the family, you know, family. And usually, I don't really have to do much, you know, Leo will say, or the son or daughter will say, let's go do something. I'm like, Yep, let's go do it. You know, and granddaughters always want to go down to the park. Again, it's just the simple things. And I found that online, sort of gives you energy and I bring gives you a bit more of a chat. I love playing the guitar. I'm not the best guitarist, I wish I could sing. Good. I like to read now. COVID comes around being stuck at home. I never was a real reader. I'd quite enjoy reading. And when I do a bit of writing, again, it's not. It's an odd stuff that is too complicated. It's too hard to do. And it's, I just, I just appreciate it. I love doing it.

Clinton Schultz  1:07:52  
And sometimes it's we can get that energy from the most unexpected or the unlucky and most unacknowledged places, you know, like, babies, for instance. Baby can't do anything for us. Yeah, physically. But man, all they got to do is smile at you. Yep. And you fucking just get this overwhelming sense, of love and joy. Yeah. That is one of the most perfect and natural examples of natural reciprocity. Yeah, we give them love. attention, affection care, they ain't got any of that to give back to this thing. I'm going to get up and cook me dinner. They're not going to change my nappy. Maybe when I'm at my kids. I keep telling my kids, I had to change your asses when you're little when I'm old. And I'm shitting myself. You have to get after Why are so that just right now we're putting in. But you know, when then little ones when they just smile at you. Right? And you allow yourself to receive that positive energy. There's probably nothing better. It's a good feeling that is probably closest, the closest thing to that is probably the affection and the connection we can get from a pet. Yeah, again, we have to do so much for those pets. They can't do any of that back for us. But man, they'll show loyalty. They'll just come and sit on your lap when you're having a real shit day. They'll rub their little noses on Yeah, and just those little small things that when you allow yourself to actually embrace and appreciate those they can make the biggest fucking difference in how you feel and how your day actually turns out.

Preston Campbell  1:09:27  
Like yeah, they give you attention. As I get older. I'm not I'm not talking pets. But kids, as I get all of mine, I'm pretty sure that in other cases or other people who've experienced this as well, as you get older, your kids sit on the bench every now and again. I'll only call you know the game when they need something but and that's okay. You know, but when they're younger, and as he says pets I just give you their time they give you everything you know their papi it melts, your heart knows, you're you, you at that moment, you're everything till it makes you feel really good. What do you got an obligation to respect that? You know, take it all in and just treat it like it should be treated, you know? Just a special moment.

Clinton Schultz  1:10:20  
Absolutely. So, these days, you've continued to do a lot of the community-based work that you started back when you were still playing football. You do that through the Preston Campbell Foundation. Give us a shameless plug. 

Preston Campbell  1:10:34  
Shameless plug 

Clinton Schultz  1:10:35  
shameless plug thiers no shame. Yeah, so I want you to absolutely own it. And be proud of it because you do amazing work and give our listeners a bit of an insight of what the foundation is about and what you're hoping to achieve.

Preston Campbell  1:10:49  
Well, look, we just haven't achieved what somebody, oh, so many people have been able to do for me, helped me realize that maybe worth more, I deserve more, or I can do more than what I think I probably can, or I am at the foundation if I can put in simple terms when trying to create spaces where people can come. And we make them feel like that. Obviously, people that come with their issues. So we work with them on those issues. And we give them the opportunity to build themselves personally. And also professionally, but without trying to do too much for them. We want to try to challenge him, I get outside their comfort zones, and we want to challenge their, their beliefs or what they know. So we have a lot of conversations, we listen to each other. Now, these are people that maybe I've never met before. But I feel it's important. And we were talking about engaging people in the new things or something that's scary. You have to get them to get an arm really well. You know, for me, it's just having conversations, asking for the name, asking them where they're from. Yeah, we're all about connection. And, and that's where it starts. But that's basically what it is.  it is creating spaces where people can come and grow. They do whatever they feel that they can do, like I did back in the day, turn up and just do the best thing. Best I can do. We have people coming in from all walks of life that ummm, I'll just probably want to do some work with us when they studying, people that want a start in life, just left school mums that have been mums for a long time and looking to get back in and doing something different. So that's just one part of what we do. But what I'm trying to achieve, and it's in the same realm as you, Clinton is, it's just about holistic well-being, you know, health and well-being that's what it's all about. Physical, mental, spiritual, and creating spaces like that, and giving people opportunities to make their own minds up, I think is really, really important. Yeah, I mean, you can be their pedal. Pet them on the back on the way, which is just as important. But we can hold on to their hands too, too much. Because I found when you do hold on to their hands a lot, they become dependent, rely a lot on you and you become depleted. You know, I personally went to try and find the balance and idea he went to as well. But that doesn't mean you don't care for if nothing else, they actually, they actually grow from that and I having these spaces is really, really important because we have many places in society are in community that welcomes and very, very inviting. But once they get there, it's probably not the best environment for them. You know. So whether man or woman, mom, dad, indigenous, somebody that says go to jail, somebody, same-sex relationships, whatever. There's not too many places that allow that person to be who they are and grow. I just want to want us to be able to create places that anybody can come in and just see themselves for who they are. 

Clinton Schultz  1:14:12  
I think that's a beautiful place to leave this conversation present. Campbell, you're one of the most beautiful people that I'm fortunate enough to have in my life Gaba nindu  thagaan . Thank you, brother, for coming in and sharing with us and affording us some of your time this afternoon.

Preston Campbell  1:14:31  
My pleasure bud really good to say ya.

Clinton Schultz  1:14:35  
A couple of super important things stood out from my yarn with Presto, these were the importance of listening and being listened to. Gamilaraay  winanga-li  means to listen. It's a process but and it requires a couple of steps. The first is an acknowledgment of the stimulus, which I guess we'll just call hearing. The second step requires conscious processing of the stimulus so that you can truly know what you've been exposed to absorbed and therefore experienced. Interestingly, winanga-li also means to remember and to know. Presto is a deadly practitioner of listening today. This hasn't always been the case. But as you could hear in his story, during his early footy days, he wasn't truly listening to himself or to others, and he became very discontent and unwell. Many people today simply hear and don't truly listen. People have become so fearful of listening, that they create noise constantly as a means not to have to listen. I used to do this all the damn time. I was pretty damn good at it, too. Didn't get me anywhere, but I just became unwell. I had to learn to listen by sitting in the bush away from the constantly created noises of society. And just being with the noises of nature. Not questioning or even trying to rationalize the sounds I was listening to but simply connecting to them. Try sitting in the bush or on a quiet beach sometime. Breathe, quiet your mind and listen to what is going on around you and within you. Try not to shut down what you're listening to, but rather acknowledge it and consciously choose to allow it in or to be by remaining still in body and silent in mind. When you allow nature's information to connect with you, you'll begin to understand your connectedness and be better placed to listen to others and to place. I understand this process as - winanga gala - or spirit listening? This is what my old people taught me. Many of you may have heard this explained as - dad theory-  by Auntie Miriam-Rose Ungunmerr Baumann AM 2021's, senior Australian of the Year. I Recommend you look the - dairy up- some time and listen to Auntie Miriam-Rose explain this concept in the most beautiful way. 
Gaba nindu.