Amy Armstrong

Sobah Life Podcast Ep. 5 featuring Amy Armstrong from @dry_but_wet
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Overcoming the "wine-mummy" life, Amy now helps others find the best NA drinks to shift their habits.
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Amy Armstrong, creator of NA drinks review platform Dry But Wet, discusses her self-imposed strive for perfection, "wino mummy" life, and the pressures of 'keeping up with the Joneses' that led to her unhealthy relationship with alcohol.
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Amy and Clinton yarn about how we are expected to drink booze when socialising just to fit into the 'norm'. "I was so good at drinking! But I didn't have a problem..." or so Amy thought.
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"Her story shows that stress is forever present. It comes in many shapes and forms" Dr. Clinton Schultz.  Make sure you listen to Dr. Clinton's takeaways at the end of the podcast 😯
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We're very grateful to Amy for trusting us with her story. We hope you enjoy this episode! Please listen, comment, share and review!
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Disclaimer:  Sobah Life Podcasts may contain explicit content relating to social-emotional wellbeing concerns such as abuse, addiction, self-harm and suicide. If you are likely to be offended or triggered by the discussion of these topics we recommend you do not listen to our podcasts. Sobah Life is not intended to replace professional help.  If you have any concerns about your social and emotional wellbeing, you should consult your doctor or mental health practitioner.  If you are triggered by any of the content of our podcasts and need immediate assistance you can call Lifeline (13 11 14), Beyond Blue (1300 22 4636) or if you are a young person, Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800).  A further list of crisis hotlines can be reached at:

https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/mental-health-services-infographic

Transcript

Clinton Schultz  0:06  
Yaama maliyaa. Welcome to Sobah Life, a podcast that delves into people's lived journeys from merely surviving through to thriving. We yarn with people from all walks of life, who have been rock bottom and have found the strength, courage and determination to pick themselves up and to keep on going. We'll hear their stories, share their laughs, and shed a few tears while learning a truckload about living along the way. The stories are raw, and real. Sobah Life is proudly brought to you by Sobah Beverages, Australia's first non-alcoholic craft beer company, and is hosted by me, Dr. Clinton Schultz, a Gamilaraay man and psychologist. If anything in these yarns triggers you, and you need immediate help, please ensure to yarn up, you can contact Lifeline, Beyond Blue, or if you're a young person, Headspace or Kids Helpline.

Clinton Schultz  1:35  
Today, I feel very privileged to have the opportunity to have yarn with Amy Armstrong from dry but wet. Amy, how are you this afternoon?

Clinton Schultz  1:45  
Yeah, I'm good. I'm nice and warm for a change, which is good... 

Clinton Schultz  1:47  
...nice and warm. Yeah, is that uh, to do with the...

Amy Armstrong  1:51  
...I live in southwest Victoria and it hasn't been warm yet this year. So it's exciting to have a day over 20 degrees, 

Amy Armstrong  1:56  
it can be the middle of summer, and you don't know if it's going to be warm down there. So you just never know what you're gonna get when you 

Amy Armstrong  2:02  
...never do... 

Clinton Schultz  2:04  
Would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?

Amy Armstrong  2:07  
Yeah, so I am a non alcoholic drinks reviewer. But I have not always been a non alcoholic drinks reviewer. I quit drinking myself in June last year, after I did, I think what a lot of people did and went too hard during lockdown that first little lock downs in in the first part of last year. But I think that was sort of the the climax of a long, long and tumultuous relationship with alcohol. I had previous to me deciding that, finally enough was enough, in June last year, I'd I'd been through our local drug and alcohol counseling here a couple of times, like a couple of years, at a time, like go improve for a little while and then go again, after, you know, up and down, up and down. That was always kind of half hearted. I think I had these terrible things that happened to me, like, you know, falling over drunk in the bushes, trying to have a bush wee and breaking my arm. And...

Clinton Schultz  3:15  
..we've all done that dont worry... 

Amy Armstrong  3:18  
*laugh* I had a one year old at the time, so it wasn't ideal. And you know, so feeling like I had to kind of repent for doing those things and be seem to be doing the right thing. And going and doing that counseling, but I, my heart was never in it. And it was always with the view of like trying to get a little bit of control back. And as many many, many people know, with moderation, unless you're a certain type of person, it's never going to work, it's always going to end up you know, sliding right back down that slippery slope. And for the most part have just ended up worse.

Clinton Schultz  3:54  
That's definitely something that's come up in multiple of the yarns that I've had on this podcast already is Well, that may be a tactic and may work for a select few. It's definitely not I'd suggest even the norm and it is absolutely not going to work for everybody so So I commend you for putting that out there because I think it's a it's a hard truth that many people need to hear a lot of the time we have people throwing in there either personal or professional to sense and and it's not necessarily always what is the best support or advice for our journey.

Amy Armstrong  4:33  
But also I think at that stage if someone had told me you need to quit drinking, I would have been like that was not on the on the cards that wasn't an option. And I didn't couldn't imagine a life without alcohol at that point. So I had to kind of get to that point by myself. 

Clinton Schultz  4:47  
...For sure, So Let's step it right back in and have a yarn about, I guess what led to your what I, what I guess you're explaining is an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. So what got you there? Give us give us a picture of what led to, to that becoming, I guess your, your norm.

Amy Armstrong  5:08  
I believe that this sort of all started I think when I was a teenager, I drank excessively, but I don't think it was sort of anything outside of what anyone else was doing, which I don't think that makes it acceptable, but...

Clinton Schultz  5:25  
...which is problematic in itself.

Amy Armstrong  5:27  
Yeah, well, that's exactly massively problematic in itself, but ya know.

Clinton Schultz  5:30  
it was very much...

Amy Armstrong  5:31  
....getting drunk and throwing up in bed and...

Clinton Schultz  5:32  
...very much for myself and for many other people that are yawn too is, unfortunately, in my generation, and I'd even suggest the generation after mine, that was the norm it was go out and party with your mates from quite a young teenage age. And getting plastered was the norm. It was go to a party get plastered throw up all over yourself or somebody else. Hope that you made when something bad hadn't happened to you?

Amy Armstrong  5:35  
Yeah, yeah. And that went on, as I went through university. And then once I finished university, I moved... so I used to live in New Zealand, I was born in New Zealand, and moved over here once I'd finished university. And when I started going out in Melbourne, I found a whole nother level, which involved a lot of not just alcohol, but drugs as well, going out dancing all night, every weekend. For the first three years that I lived in Melbourne, when I was living there, I met my now husband, and he is very much a homebody kind of a guy, he likes to drink. He drinks a lot, but he's a very homebody guy, and he sort of tried to stop me going out and partying. And that didn't work. So it was fighting against that for a lot of our early relationship. And that got to the point where he was like, right, well, I really would like to stay with you, but I can't deal with this anymore. This is not what I want. I'm going to go and live in New South Wales. And you can come if you want. And I was like, Oh, shit, okay, right. So I went up to New South Wales with him. And like, that removed me from a big part of my life, like, took the party, out of the party girl sort of thing. And we were up there didn't know anybody. And we, you know, relied on each other purely for socializing. And a lot of that was going to the Bowls Club, going to the RSL, for afternoons of drinking. And in doing that, together, like I've got a really good drinking, buddy. But he also taught me a lot of really unhealthy drinking habits that he had. So like, maybe, say, started drinking at 10 o'clock in the morning, on a race day, if we were going to go watch the races, or I learned to drink a lot of beer and keep pace with him. Like for a full day, just sitting in a lot of day drinking, you know. And so that was kind of like our life up there. And then and but I was I didn't really even then think that that was problematic, we it didn't really cause any issues between us. And I wasn't really doing too many stupid things, then either I wasn't injuring myself or doing anything to untoward, then we moved back to Victoria and had our first child five years ago. And that's probably when things really changed again. I would say I having that nine months off drinking, and emerging into this whole new world that has been a mother was such a big change for me. And in order to cope with all of that was like making up for lost time by drinking wine. It was, it was such a big change. And I know that a lot of women feel this way you like lose your identity completely. When you become a mother and you have this mortal fear that life is never going to be the same and you're not going to be able to go out and do all the things that you want to do. And so every opportunity I had to be out there doing what I was doing, I was like leaping on it. And I was drinking hard and drinking fast and just cramming it all in those moments when I when I wasn't here. And if I was going away for work. I just go full tilt and just lose the plot big time. Like fully blacked out by myself in Melbourne, doing all these ridiculous, insane things, not knowing what I was doing. And you know, my family are at home, trying to check in I mean, not knowing if I was dead or alive and that ended up with a few hospital visits like the breaking the arm and split my knee open and there were a few, yeah a few hospital incidents. Over that time my husband had lost his job and he had two years where he was unemployed. And that was a really stressful time as well. And I think a big part of that what it started it was drinking to the mum, the mum drinking really, really escalated then as well with just just the stress of dealing with his unemployment in life. And it was like momentum.

Clinton Schultz  10:21  
 ...Yeahp...

Amy Armstrong  10:21  
...drinking momentum.

Clinton Schultz  10:23  
Thank you for sharing all that. And you've raised some really important issues there that I don't think Australia acknowledges, nevermind accepts but even acknowledges are problematic. The first being the over normalization of alcohol, and socialization, which just isn't we're not born doing that it's not natural. As human beings, we existed for 1000s of generations without having to be intoxicated to actually enjoy each other's company or to have a dance or to do any of the other things that we think we have to be, you know, lubricated to be able to do these days. But the other really important thing that I've just heard you yawning about is how hard it can actually be. For new mums. And it's a conversation that I don't think gets brought up enough that there is still this overwhelming pressure on people to on new mums, even to, to drink, you know, you go through it with your pregnancy, everybody asking when you if you're choosing not to drink, you just get bombarded with the questions of oh, what's wrong with the idea pregnant? Well, that's your own private information. You don't need to be sharing that with everybody if you don't want to any how, but, you know, I've seen it myself. I've seen my wife at times had to do it and others that we know literally buying drinks when they are pregnant, not even to consume, but just to hold. 

Amy Armstrong  11:50  
Yeah, that's ridiculous. 

Clinton Schultz  11:51  
Wouldn't have people bombarding them with with questions that are none of their fucking business at the end of the day. And that that can be a really isolating period within someone's life to feel that, okay, if I don't fit into this norm, am I still going to have my supports my friendship groups there for me. And then when, you know, when, when the words out, and even when Bob's born, there being all these overwhelming pressures of I have to be the perfect mom. I don't think we get that as dads like we get off pretty fucking lightly, to be honest... 

Amy Armstrong  12:27  
*laughs* yea you do...

Clinton Schultz  12:27  
Like, I continued carrying on like a complete fuckwit until the birth of my second child, and I am so grateful every day these days that, that my beautiful wife Lozen put up with all my bullshit. Because I don't know if I would have to be honest. And so I'm forever grateful for that. But I don't think as men, we appreciate what that experience must be like, for women.

Amy Armstrong  12:53  
Yeah, it's tough. And that's why there's this whole mommy wine culture, because there's just this need for something to be a coping mechanism 

Clinton Schultz  13:04  
...for sure... 

Amy Armstrong  13:05  
and their is this need. I found it because what I felt is I mean, I'm a very type a perfectionist, sort of a person. And when you have a kid that kind of goes out the window, and you're trying to control these things, and you can't, and I needed to feel like I could let go of control a little bit. And the only way I could do that was by drinking, I had a philosophy that was called drunk mum. And anytime I was stressed out about something that was going on with violet, or there was, you know, just something was really getting to me, I was like, hang on, hang on, drunk mum do stroke, mum wouldn't care about this, like, just, I had like a whole persona that I could put myself into what like, if that was what I did in order to say just chill, chill the fuck out? Then that's, I mean, that's not a good standard to really be holding itself to.

Clinton Schultz  13:52  
It's not. And you know, and often, I don't think people understand how common that experience may actually be, you know, like, you know, I'm on we're having this conversation on zoom at the moment. And, you know, as far as anybody would be concerned, if they were looking at you right now, you're young, beautiful woman who is unlikely to have experienced fucking adversity and therefore should never have to have a drinking problem or something to negatively cope with. Do you think that's a general perception that many women have to put up with?

Amy Armstrong  14:25  
I would think so. Definitely. Yeah. Because a lot. I mean, a lot of the women that I've got to know in this sober community, are like on the surface, they are successful, they're smart, they're educated, they've got great jobs, they've got everything but there's still this common theme that keeps reoccurring and it's, it's pressure, it's live pressure.

Clinton Schultz  14:48  
Yeah, and as societies we tend to, we stereotype and we stigmatize certain parts of society without looking at at realities, you know, for instance, as an Aboriginal man, we're all painted from this deficit discourse. perspective that we're all alcoholics that we must all be abusive, etc, etc. And, you know, Australia commonly gets the impression that drinking is an Aboriginal problem. Whereas the clear hard facts in Australia are that non Indigenous people are more likely to consume alcohol at all then us as First Nations peoples. But that's definitely not the story that's out there. And it's definitely not the story that all the truths that get told about people who may be coming from, you know, more middle class sectors of an Australian society, we hide that. And I think that's really problematic, and puts at times even more pressure, and therefore more chance that people are going to negatively cope trying to keep up with the Joneses. Trying to keep up the image that Australia expects, of whatever part of society you are perceived to come from. Do you think that's a real experience?

Amy Armstrong  15:51  
Yeah, absolutely. And, look the reality of is like, now, where I am, I can see very clearly that I had a drinking problem. But when I was in it, I did not see that at all. What how I was behaving was pretty much normal. 

Clinton Schultz  16:08  
Many people do they think it's not a drinking problem. They actually think they're good at drinking.

Amy Armstrong  16:12  
I was so good at drinking, I didn't get hangovers. I didn't get hangovers. I was the first one up in the house every weekend because I didn't have a problem. I was blacked out walking my child home from a three year old's birthday party in a pram like but I didn't have a problem.

Clinton Schultz  16:29  
That's that's a really common story as well. And one of the things that I'm really passionate about these days is actually trying to bring more of an awareness to people about the exposure to alcohol for kids. Oh, I went to a five year olds birthday party recently. And literally, I was the only person there not drinking. 

Amy Armstrong  16:50  
...Yeah, drinking at a childrens birthday party is massive... 

Clinton Schultz  16:51  
...that scared the shit out of me. Particularly when, particularly when everybody's carrying on saying, you know, are there's going to be problems with non our adult based beverages, encouraging people to drink, and I'm standing there going Fuck off, you'd all drink in front of your kids *Amy laughs*. That's where the fucking problem is not from trying to create sophisticated boutique products to replace alcohol for adults *Amy laughs*. So people don't like to look in their own backyard. They like to just fucking blame somebody else for for I guess, putting some bad impressions on their own children and, and I think parties, his kids parties is one of those things that day in day out happens in Australia, where alcohol is seen by young people very, very young people as a part of celebration.

Amy Armstrong  17:00  
 Yeahp, my daughter's first birthday. I vomited. second birthday, blacked out their birthday, blacked out, every birthday party I was not present for until the last one. That was wonderful.

Clinton Schultz  17:52  
That's and that's awesome. You know, and how great is it when you start to get those moments back?

Amy Armstrong  17:58  
Yeah, it's amazing. And to be so aware of it is and have that comparison. It's just it's mind blowing. 

Clinton Schultz  18:05  
So what was your rock bottom? What really made you go fuck me, I've got to change or I don't know if my family will be here or if I'll be here.

Amy Armstrong  18:17  
Um, well, so my husband had been saying when you're drinking, we will not be here. He threatened that. But he had never done it. And he now does tell me that he actually had sought advice from a lawyer about what sort of action he could take.

Clinton Schultz  18:35  
And how did you take that given that he's a drinker? 

Amy Armstrong  18:39  
Yeah, well, it is interesting, because he does drink and when, where he's not drinking very much at the moment, but when he is drinking, he can drink a lot like he can take drinks a lot. He has long, big sessions, but he's never out of control. Like the worst thing that he might do is just go to bed at six o'clock *Clinton laughs*. You know, like, he's never raised his voice. He's never He doesn't have memory loss. He's,yeah, 

Clinton Schultz  19:05  
so the behaviors associated with the drinking are very different.

Amy Armstrong  19:09  
Very much. So he knows. And he knows when he's had enough and he can just stop, whereas I just, you know, didn't have an off switch.

Clinton Schultz  19:16  
And many people don't. many people don't know when enough is enough. Or even if one is too much. 

Amy Armstrong  19:24  
Oh, my when I had that, that finally decided that enough was enough. Well, what what had happened was I had a girlfriend from high school, reach out to me just on Facebook, and she wanted to chat. And I thought it was quite random. But she wanted to chat and she wanted to apologize for some of the things that she'd done. When we were in high school. I was like, Whoa, that's super weird. Okay, that I literally never thought about it. But she'd had all these things planned on her mind about the time when she screwed up. We're sitting in our driveway and all these funny stories and I was like, okay, that's weird, but great. I totally forgive you. And she had bonds Done. She told me all about her story about how she been sober for a little while, and she'd done any Grace's alcohol experiment program and what that had meant to her. And I said, No listen to her. And at this point, I kind of had an inkling that drinking wasn't helping me anymore. But her telling me that what she felt was that she was living her best life and that all of the things that I was worried about losing, like, going out for dinner and having these amazing experiences, and all of those things that I was worried about, she was like, you can have all of those things and enjoy them, and you will enjoy them even more than you ever thought you possibly could. And I was like, Why is she on about like this is? No, because I just could never Picture My Life without alcohol. And so I'd looked at the program and I sort of thought about it and I thought, Okay, I'm going to give this a go. Maybe next week. Yeah. But then in between lockdowns, there was a Friday and we were allowed out and I had a long lunch with girlfriends. I actually just need to add in here at this point, I was on antidepressants, because during that first lockdown, I sort of went, I wasn't coping with it at all. So my doctor put me on antidepressants, and there were antidepressants that meant that you weren't supposed to drink. But that was taken very lightly, is a light suggestion rather than a hard and fast rule. And I was blacking out and spewing and stuff after having like five drinks or something. So they were really affecting me. So I was really feeling off. So when she pinged this idea at me, I was like, Okay, maybe this is something I need to do, or look at. So we now for the lunch was blacked out by 430 in the afternoon, had a house full of visitors that come to stay for the weekend. I was just playing up like stealing everyone's strengths been angry, angry, angry, just shit. But I didn't know any of this. I just got told all the details the next day, but I just literally woke up a new,

Clinton Schultz  22:07  
kind friendly face. I'm finding it hard to imagine. Yeah,

Amy Armstrong  22:11  
I know. But I was I got I was very angry, drunk by the end of it. And I woke up the next morning and rolled over and said to my husband, I just said, you don't even need to say anything. And that's it. I'm done. And it turns out, like I'd fallen fallen with my daughter into the wardrobe. I upset everyone. And I had no like, no recollection of any of it. So it was just, that was just enough, then.

Clinton Schultz  22:40  
So who do you reckon you made this change? Mostly for yourself? Or your family? Oh, that's a that's a tough question. 50 That's fair enough. You know, like, I think the important thing is that people are able to find their reason, like, is this something that I'm doing because I want change in my life, and I can see others are gonna benefit benefit from that? Or is it I know, this is gonna be fucking hard. And it may not necessarily necessarily be what I want. But I know I have to do it to help the lives of those that I'm connected to. So I think 

Amy Armstrong  23:15  
I had reached the point where I was so sick of myself, I was so sick of it. So it was for a good part of it was for myself, because I couldn't see another way out of it. But it also for my family, because otherwise they were going to disappear.

Clinton Schultz  23:28  
And that, you know, there's probably nothing more I know for me personally as a father, and so I can only imagine what it would be like for a mother that there's nothing more freaking scary, then the thought of of losing particularly your kids, your partner that might suck but your kids that's like having a piece of your fucking torn away which is likely you know, and many people have to go through that because maybe they didn't get the assistance that they needed at the right time. Maybe they didn't get that light bulb moment or didn't have the supports in place to make the journey a little bit smoother and more successful where maybe they do lose those loved ones from their from their lives for maybe just for a period of time maybe it's for good but you know that's likely to drive you to fucking more likely use your negative coping strategy than anything else. 

Amy Armstrong  24:21  
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

Clinton Schultz  24:25  
 So one of the things that that I heard you are yarning about that just there in terms of your rock bottom as such and while you were looking to bring around that changes to to make sure that you maintain that connection that's really important for you which is your family. Is there other connections that you think have been strengthened by you getting off the piss?

Amy Armstrong  24:52  
Oh, my Yeah, well, my whole life really. My whole life connection my life engery

Clinton Schultz  25:00  
 For sure. 

Amy Armstrong  25:02  
I'm really lucky in that I haven't lost any friends over stopping drinking, I've realized that that is a good thing, I am really lucky and that people do have really awful experiences, but they do lose connections with friends. I'm really lucky in that I've been able to keep doing all the things that I wanted to do, and still socialize with the people who are drinking and that I've been comfortable with that. So I haven't kind of had to drop off and disconnect from people. But no one's given me a hard time. Everyone's been super supportive. As soon as I made the decision, everyone could see that it was the right thing for me to be doing.

Clinton Schultz  25:42  
That's awesome. 

Amy Armstrong  25:43  
Yeah, it's amazing. And I have incredible friends. And there, yeah, all of those connections are just strengthened, really?

Clinton Schultz  25:51  
How integrify That's been to your success so far, of being able to maintain your sobriety?

Amy Armstrong  25:57  
I think I probably take it for granted a little bit. It does when when people do when I do hear stories of people who aren't so lucky and do have, you know, friends challenging them, and why don't you have a drink? It does, it really does make me realize how lucky I am. And yeah, I think it is it is important to have those supports around you. Because if you were having someone they lightened come on just just have one won't hurt. I mean, I can imagine, I get a luckily can't imagine that because it couldn't be your undoing.

Clinton Schultz  26:32  
So you said moderation wasn't your cup of tea and just wasn't going to work for you. And unfortunately, so many people get told, yeah, just moderate, you'll be okay. And it doesn't work for a whole bunch of people out there. And it's something that I really try and drive home through through a lot of these yarns that we have, because I think it's a dangerous message that is broadcast to too many people. So what has worked, let's get on to what has worked for you. So you had this mad drinking lifestyle that had led you down a rabbit hole, you're blacking out all the time, you got to a point where you went Fuck this? What changed? How'd you get there?

Amy Armstrong  27:09  
I did that. I did any braces 30 Day alcohol experiment online, and literally just haven't not looked back.

Clinton Schultz  27:17  
Do you want to tell us a little about that, because many of our listeners may be aware of what that is and how it works.

Amy Armstrong  27:23  
So it's an online program, you just log in, there's an app now there wasn't an app when I did it. But that makes it even easier. Because it's little, probably, I don't know, 20 minutes work every day watching a video doing a little bit of bit of journaling. And it's essentially just changing your psychology and how you view alcohol. So I think it's based a little bit around Alan Carr's dairies. So he has, how I quit smoking and the drinking one, but it just totally removes all the power from the alcohol and gives it back to you. It makes you see on the negative sides of what you've been doing, and the culture around drinking and how our beliefs are so tied up with it and ingrained in alcohol is a positive thing. I mean, we as we talked about what the birthday party is, everything is a celebration, everything isn't an occasion to drink. So it literally just it's like flipping a switch. It's just a total head job. But in a really good way, like just flip flips, your new way of thinking.

Clinton Schultz  28:32  
It's a it's a cognitive behavioral therapy based intervention for anybody who's sort of wondering what I guess basis is behind it and, and CBT is very effective for many people who are trying to overcome a whole bunch of adversities, not going to work for a whole bunch of other people. But that's the same with anything out there. Just same as moderation is not a key for everybody. CBT is not going to be the key for everybody either. But it can be a useful tool, but it's something that many people may not be aware of. So...

Amy Armstrong  29:02  
... hasn't worked for chocolate, though,

Clinton Schultz  29:04  
 hasn't worked for chocolate chocolates, okay? 

Amy Armstrong  29:07  
Keep trying it with the chocolate, 

Clinton Schultz  29:09  
you know, if you've, if you've managed to eradicate alcohol, when you've got to stick to chocolate, then I say that's a way better vise to be honest.*Both laugh*

Amy Armstrong  29:17  
It's a better option. better options. Absolutely. So coming out of that program, I felt really good. But I kind of kept on being involved with that community. So there's quite a community of support. And I became a mentor within that program just to help other people who are starting out and then became a mentor again, when they did a live alcohol experiment. Just again, to help people to help tell them my experiences. And I just found that being in those circles around other people was really, really helpful for me.

Clinton Schultz  29:49  
How was the different experience between I guess the face to face counseling experience? You mentioned that you've gone through that a few times as compared to I guess an online meeting. supportive and structural based program?

Amy Armstrong  30:03  
Well, it was chalk and cheese. I mean, the big the big difference being, though that I never believed that I needed to be at the face to face counseling, and my heart was never in it. And I was lying through my teeth the whole time. I was doing

Clinton Schultz  30:16  
more timing thing you think maybe then? 

Amy Armstrong  30:19  
definitely for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because even at that time, I think that one of the counselors at the counseling had suggested that I listened to Anne Grace's podcasts. And I listened to that first episode. And I was like, why for that alcohol, pffffff no *both laugh*. Remember, distinctly remember, where I was when I heard that I'm like, this lady is crazy. That's not a thing.

Clinton Schultz  30:43  
You know, it's a super important point, though. Because, you know, I've been a registered psychologist for a dozen years or something, and I tell every single client that I've ever worked with, and continue to tell them this, that I cannot help you unless you are ready to change and you want help. So when you're mentioning that, you know, when you're going through those cycles of face to face counseling, and it wasn't really your cup of tea, because you were just in the headspace of no alcohol, fuck this. So sometimes we get forced in these into these positions where we feel we have to go and get these, these interventions as such, to please others. But if we're not ready, it's never going to work. Would you agree?

Amy Armstrong  31:25  
Yeah. 100%. And that's what it was, it was, Oh, God, I've done I've been to a terrible person. And if I go and do this, then maybe I won't be such a terrible person. But I don't have a problem.

Clinton Schultz  31:39  
And then you get to the you got to that space where you decided you actually were ready for some change within in your life. And would I be right in saying that you'd found your purpose for doing that? 

Amy Armstrong  31:50  
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 

Clinton Schultz  31:52  
And you think that's been a key ingredient in in, I guess, the success in in your new life so far?

Amy Armstrong  31:59  
Yeah. Just, as soon as I became involved in that community, it just, I was able to see myself and all these other people where I never had before. And I was able to just realize that my experience was very far from unique. My experience was also not acceptable, then that just really resonated with me a lot. So that that definitely was a massive part of keeping me on track.

Clinton Schultz  32:27  
So what do you do now? Because we all have to cope. Stress never stops. So what you know, stress is the only constant in our lives. I commonly people think taxes, tax is the only car the only constant in your life, but I'm trying to reprogram people to understand that no stress is you know, being in a relationship is stressful. Being alone stressful. Having kids is stressful. No kids are stressful, having a job stressful, no job stressful. Stress is always there just in different shapes and forms. So we're still going to need to cope with that presence of stress. So what is it that you do now that you don't have alcohol to lean on for that.

Amy Armstrong  33:04  
And like, over the past 18 months, I've had an intense amount of stress. It's been incredibly taxing on me. And the amount of times I've said to myself, I'm so glad I'm not drinking, because this would be so much worse. To help me through that I've had seen a psychotherapist myself, I see her kind of on a needs basis. So when things aren't going really well, I have her there. I have learnt a lot about myself. And I do a lot of journaling now, and I have lots of baths. I'm addicted to my bath.

Clinton Schultz  33:45  
They're all positive things. And I guess one of the key factors, takeaway factors within that would be that you've got to find what works for you. Would you agree? How many times have you been told by other people this is what you should do. This is what you need to do. But I'm sure that once you found those things that work for you life has been a lot easier.

Amy Armstrong  34:07  
Yeah, but meditation works for a lot of people but I can't meditate because my brain is just like

Clinton Schultz  34:14  
having a bath is a form of meditation. 

Amy Armstrong  34:16  
Well is it though if you've got your phone in there with you *both laugh*

Clinton Schultz  34:21  
that's that could be a very expensive habit. Dropping the phone in the bath could become a very problematic choice to have in place. as there not all waterproof as I found that out very recently, I I was stupid enough to be using my phone in the spa and dropped it in the spa 

Amy Armstrong  34:41  
...just as bad... 

Clinton Schultz  34:42  
and it was supposedly a waterproof phone. They don't tell you that it's not waterproof at 38 degrees *Amy laughs*. Hot water is a whole different kettle of fish. A phone was fried. All my contacts all my photos Everything was saved to the phone, not the dissolve learned a few lessons out of that in the last couple of weeks...

Amy Armstrong  35:05  
got to get on the cloud,

Clinton Schultz  35:07  
 I keep getting these warning saying my clouds full. And I'm like really, *Amy luahgs* I don't put anything there. Very, very small 

Amy Armstrong  35:16  
...gett a bigger cloud.... 

Clinton Schultz  35:17  
Yeah, must be very small allotments that they allow for the cloud. 

Amy Armstrong  35:21  
...Get a bigger cloud *giggles* 

Clinton Schultz  35:24  
So you have you have this blog site, you have this platform that you're now using to review non alcoholic beverages. And I'm sure part of that is to assist people to be able to better navigate this very quickly growing space of not out beverages. And I've been doing this for for a few years now. And now we're here from the beginning, there was no space. Now. It's this booming industry, which is great to see. Because more choice means hopefully, more people are going to have something that works for them or that they like choosing at whatever time for whatever reason as a replacement for alcohol. So I'm all for the choice and variety. So tell us a little bit about about the platform and what you're hoping to achieve through it.

Amy Armstrong  36:16  
Well, so not... firstly, non alc for me, it's been like a massive part of me staying on track. I don't think I would have been, I know I wouldn't have been able to without it. I struggled so much when I was pregnant because I didn't know anything, or there wasn't any options for me then and going anywhere was super painful. And having to sit on pints of soda water was super painful.

Clinton Schultz  36:41  
And annoying. You know, how annoying is that? When you're paying six bucks for some sparkling water with a little piece of lime in it? I'm always like, fuck you. I've got a SodaStream at home. I know how much they cost. 

Amy Armstrong  36:52  
Yes, costs nothing. 

Clinton Schultz  36:54  
...That's it

Clinton Schultz  36:56  
Yeah, a sliver of lime is the only thing in that glass that cost anything

Amy Armstrong  37:02  
such a rort. So for me, like finding non elk at the beginning was a massive, massive help and to be able to go go out, socialize and just keep drinking wine was massive. So I began reviewing wine and beer and everything in December last year, just on Instagram. And quickly sort of realized that I needed to start pulling these things all together and build a website, then start housing reviews. Because as you know, there are so many products and it's just, it was just getting out of hand. So built the website and reviewing constantly. It's just growing and growing and growing. I'm having to redo my website because it won't, it's not working anymore, because there's too many reviews on there. Now it needs to become more user friendly. So that's a big part of what I'm doing with dry but wet and like that's just continuing to grow. Like behind me. There's just boxes and boxes of wine and it's overwhelming

Clinton Schultz  38:01  
can I ask where the name came from because I find it very provocative. I'm not gonna lie

Amy Armstrong  38:07  
so does my husband *both laugh*. 

Clinton Schultz  38:01  
I'm sure the majority of men who hear that are going to find it quite provoative. was that a targeted approach?

Amy Armstrong  38:16  
I think so. I think it's gonna be memorable. 

Clinton Schultz  38:21  
Absolutely, absolutely. Brand awareness is about is about memory retention. So

Amy Armstrong  38:26  
yeah. So I'll keep doing the reviews. But then another big part of what I'm doing is advocating for better options in hospitality. 

Clinton Schultz  38:35  
...Okay... 

Amy Armstrong  38:35  
because like it does drive me nuts when you go out and all you can get a soda water and despite what we're seeing in retail, hospitality is still so far behind in so many places,

Clinton Schultz  38:48  
particularly where I live on the Gold Coast.

Amy Armstrong  38:51  
This is what I'm discovering Queensland is really behind

Unknown Speaker  38:54  
oh crap. You know, we

Amy Armstrong  38:56  
 Yeah, 

Clinton Schultz  38:56  
we're behind on a lot of issues. Let's not try and *Amy laughs* hide  that there. We are behind on a lot of issues. And we have a lot of we have a lot of, I guess can contentious issues that we're not ready to face as a as a broader public or is a state here in Queensland. You know, one of those is people up here I'm constantly working with people up here banging on about oh what's all this. Palaszczuk got the boarder closed? and what's all this crap about COVID? and blah blah blah carrying on. Well that's because we haven't actually been impacted by it up here in any shape or form as compared to New South Wales and particularly Victoria, you know, is the most lockdown state in the world that must have driven so much fucking stress and social emotional well being disturbance for so many people that I just can't even imagine what that would have been like, Would you mind giving us a little bit of insight about actually what that has been like that whole experience?

Amy Armstrong  40:00  
It is. Yeah. Yeah, it's the constant. You never know what's around the corner. You never know whether you're going to be in or out or lockdown like we, in regional Victoria, we had seven lockdowns and having the kids home during the teaching. It's just that that constant, something hanging over your head that even if it's going on right now, it could really quickly come undone. And it did quickly come and done a lot of times, not being able to plan anything. I am having my 40th birthday party this weekend. And my birthday was in June, July. So that party got canceled and canceled and cancelled yet, so it's just no one can organize anything. Because you it's gotten to the point where no one is organizing anything. Because you can't you can't plan ahead, you can certainly you know, how many people are going to be allowed in a place or if anyone's going to be allowed out at all. So people have just ended up giving up because it's just, it's just such a weight over your head constantly.

Clinton Schultz  41:05  
And I absolutely commend you for being able to maintain your sobriety through what has undoubtably been one of the most stressful periods in our lifetimes. You know, I'm 42. So we're around the same age. And this would have to have been particularly for those in states that have experienced high levels of COVID and high levels of lockdowns and all the other bullshit that's gone with this. One of the most stressful periods in our lifetime. So I absolutely commend you for being able to maintain your sobriety through that and not only maintain your sobriety, but to go further and actually create something that is now going to be beneficial to others who may be looking to make some lifestyle choices.

Amy Armstrong  41:50  
Yeah, yeah. And that's, like, the reason why I've been able to do this is because of being sober. And because I've found something that I'm so passionate about, and I'm driven to do, like, I've never felt how I feel about anything. And um, you know, I'm an art background I love to do, I paint I sew, and I love all those things. But I've never felt like so driven to do it, like I do with with the non help stuff and to want to share and get it out there and help other people with it. And it's insane. Like, from where I've come from to this, it's them in that's the most ironic thing in the world. But you did what you find when you stop drinking, the the clarity and the drive and the energy to do this. It's it's incredible.

Clinton Schultz  42:41  
That was what I was just about to ask is What do you feel you have most gained because when we're drinking, or when we're negatively coping in any shape or form, we're very focused on what might I miss out on? What might happen if all of that side of the equation rather than being able to really process what is it that I actually have to gain? And now you're in that position where you've been sober for over a year? What is it that you feel you've most gained back in your life from from taking this journey?

Amy Armstrong  43:11  
Number one thing is confidence. 

Clinton Schultz  43:14  
Awesome. 

Amy Armstrong  43:14  
Number one thing by far is I hold all my power now. And I never had that before. I always thought that I was as much as people would say that I'm a bubbly and out there person. I never believed that. And

Clinton Schultz  43:31  
well you probably wore when you were drinking. So 

Amy Armstrong  43:33  
yeah, 

Clinton Schultz  43:34  
that you know, that fake version of ourselves is often the persona that people take to be our real self. But if we're intoxicated, then we're not ourselves.

Amy Armstrong  43:44  
No, no. So all I think the thing is, like all of the things that I thought that that drinking was giving me like the confidence and the relaxation and all of those things. I've realized now that I had those all along, and I was those things all along, but I never embodied them, and now I do. So that's, that's, that's the biggest thing for me is standing in my self. That's not the right word. But you know what I mean, standing in my power,

Clinton Schultz  44:14  
I absolutely understand what you meaning. And I actually think it is good wording, the way that you've put it because we're often afraid of being ourselves. And we must start with a whole bunch of things throughout our lives. And for many people that may be drugs or alcohol fathers that may be, you know, becoming really withdrawn and sheltered for others that may be becoming unfortunately violent. They're always that unfortunately, we we tend to negatively cope with with the uneasy experiences that we're having. And often that is the unease of just simply being, being ourselves. So I completely understand where you're coming from that and I think that's an important part of the recovery journey is learning to be yourself and to be confident within that, to feel safe within that. And not afraid to express it.

Amy Armstrong  45:11  
Yeah. And I think you see that, like, I know from all of the people that I interact with in this community, like the people who are the brands and the the bloggers and the retailers, and everyone who's working in this sober space, I feel like everyone's on the same page, like, everyone's fired up, and everyone's passionate about what they're doing. And it's because they have that clarity and the confidence now that they're sober, and it's it's quite infectious. I feel like, the reason why this space is growing so rapidly is because it's like its own crack, you know, like, everyone's fired up on being sober and like, we're in this church, and we've drunk the Kool Aid. And but it's, yeah,

Clinton Schultz  45:55  
one of the things that I'm hearing a lot of people talking about is how much more they're appreciating, being able to simply remember, yeah, remember the party, remember the celebration? Remember, the movie that you watched. And that is worth celebrating in itself is the fact that, you know, you can actually cherish those moments and you can get to keep them like, I'm like you, I used to have mad blackouts. And I wouldn't be able to remember, half the day that I actually was drinking, plus a whole period of the next day, and I wouldn't know what the hell I'd done. What had happened to me, any of that within that time period, which, which was extremely freakin dangerous for one. But it also meant that every single one of those parties, every single one of those nights out clubbing, every single one of those even Christmas dinners, to be honest, during my... 

Amy Armstrong  46:55  
...You made it to dinner? 

Clinton Schultz  46:56  
troubled time, I don't remember them. Like, I have people telling me to remember this and I'm like, fuck was I there? And that sucks, you know, that really sucks to not 

Amy Armstrong  47:08  
you miss out on everything 

Clinton Schultz  47:09  
not to have those memories. Because memories a fact they're one of the only things that we that we get to keep, they don't cost us anything. And they can really give us that, that little edge that little bit of support that we need in the tough times is to be able to remember what we do have, what we have gone through and survived and what we have appreciated where we have been like, I've lost a whole bunch of that. Would that be similar for you?

Amy Armstrong  47:38  
Yeah, 100% a massive black holes in my life.

Clinton Schultz  47:43  
I blame my PhD these like I tell people these days, you know, you do a PhD and your head ends up like a block of Swiss cheese, but I'm sure everybody else who knows me guess fuck off Clinton. That was the years of drug and alcohol abuse that have left your head? Yeah. But I'll continue to blame the PhD because I think that's more socially acceptable

Amy Armstrong  48:03  
yeahp just run PhD.

Clinton Schultz  48:05  
So, where is everything at with Dry but wet? Where and what's the plans for really, I guess getting the word out there and, and getting people involved with what you're trying to create?

Amy Armstrong  48:19  
Well, I'm sort of on the precipice of launching a whole bunch of stuff I want to start actually consulting while I already have sort of started consulting consulting for people in a one on one capacity so helping them find their perfect perfect match drink wise so actually sitting down and having a chat with them and and working out what what products are going to suit them because I've got this massive knowledge base now of the last year's worth of reviewing. That's what I want to do is start connecting people in with the really good products because, What worries me is that there's a lot because there is a lot of crap out there. I dont what people you know, buying what's in front of them at the supermarket or what's easy and having that and having a bad experience and then deciding that non alcs shit because they've had that one terrable... 

Clinton Schultz  49:05  
ah, fuck that was so our journey at Sobah when we first started like non alc had such a freakin bad name that nobody was willing to give it a crack or to believe that... the amount of times I got told non alc what's the point? Or non alc that's rubbish, before even tasting or going near 

Amy Armstrong  49:25  
Yeah, 

Clinton Schultz  49:25  
anything decent that had come about was was crazy.

Amy Armstrong  49:29  
Well and the the problem like it was not a problem. But the thing that's happening now is because a lot of these big alcohol preduces seeing the opportunity and getting on board with it. What they're making is not made with integrity like what you're making, it's not made with the consumers best interests at heart. So it's a lot of its garbage and a lot of it is because they've got the distribution. It's what's in front of people. So

Clinton Schultz  49:53  
I wouldn't say it's just the big players that lack, lack ethics at times. There's many others that are during this as a, because they seen a good gap in the market and just see it as a bit of a part of the capitalist machine. 

Amy Armstrong  50:08  
Yeah, that's true. 

Clinton Schultz  50:10  
Yeah, not as

Amy Armstrong  50:11  
but yea like, I don't want people to have to drink Great Northern beer and think that that's what non alc beer tastes like.

Clinton Schultz  50:17  
But at least I can go to any pub pretty much in Queensland now and get a great northern zero. 

Amy Armstrong  50:22  
Or you can 

Clinton Schultz  50:23  
Yeah, yeah, we've got to a point now where pretty much they've saturated all their, you know, they hold half the market up here. And they've saturated their pubs with it. So I went out on a long motorbike ride with a bunch of mates on the weekend. And we stopped at three different pubs on that journey. And so, and literally, the only thing I could get was a great northern zero. Not the best, but at least I didn't have to drink that six,

Amy Armstrong  50:48  
its something

Clinton Schultz  50:48  
that $6 glass of soda water with a piece of lime in it. So it's a start, its a start. 

Amy Armstrong  50:54  
Yeah. So I'm working on a few different things, making sure that people are getting the good stuff. And then the other piece that people can really get involved with is the venue, register side of things. So I've got that on my website, people can submit venues to it. There's lots of hints there on how you can approach venues to say, I'm coming for dinner, can I bring my own bottle of wine, or if you don't have any options, you should think about doing this. There's all that information there. Because I've done a lot of trial and error and a lot of asking, and the only way that we're going to really drive change is by asking, and it has to be led by us to show that there is demand because that's the number one thing that Ben has come up with is there's no demand.

Clinton Schultz  51:37  
Absolutely. It's I still hear that today. And it blows my mind. We know it's the fastest growing sector within the the adult beverage industry. But yet, we're still having you saying I know we don't have a need for that in our venue. No, you will or there'll be people choosing to not come there. One thing I've got to ask because it's something that gets raised with me all the time in what we do, you know, I'm somebody who's, who doesn't drink anymore, but I own a non alcoholic craft beer, brewery business and building a brewery etc. That way, that's okay for me like I, I can consume beverages that may taste like alcoholic cousins. And I'm not triggered by that. But something that always gets asked is, or something that always gets raised is Do you think that this may be problematic for people in recovery? My opinions always been that people need to be empowered to make their own choices, and that having choices may work for some. And that's people like me, and it sounds like yourself. What do you think may be beneficial for those that still need to stay the fuck away? Because there is people out there and I would never try and hide from saying it. There is people out there that need to stay the fuck away from anything that even remotely tastes like an alcoholic beverage.

Amy Armstrong  52:58  
Yeah. Well, we're lucky that even that there's a whole space there's a whole you know, categories that is safe for those people so they're not still going to have to sit on a lemon lemon bitters, there's, you know, non there's itch. There's all of these great Australian Lt. Now, these are all drinks that are being made locally that nothing like alcohol, but then nothing like soft drink the adult they're using beautiful ingredients. They're crafted and they're they work they've been appear with food. They are adult 

Clinton Schultz  53:34  
they are sophisticated.

Amy Armstrong  53:35  
Yea sophisticated

Clinton Schultz  53:36  
Yes. not Cordial or soft drink...

Amy Armstrong  53:39  
Yeah. Not, not overly sugary. And yeah. So there's there's options. There's options for everybody?

Clinton Schultz  53:46  
And do you do highlight that information in what you do? Within the website? Platform?

Amy Armstrong  53:53  
Yeah, so anything that's replicating alcohol, I have a trigger warning on it, or, you know, this could be triggering for people. And then there's a whole section for the alternatives. That's, that's growing rapidly, which is good.

Clinton Schultz  54:08  
Awesome. And thank you very much for for sharing that you you share that, that sensitive that this just isn't for everybody. But there is still fucking good options out there. Because people, people just people just aren't listening to that part of the narrative to that part of the story that we're we're not just trying to promote replacements for alcohol versions of something that were just which we've tried to create an entire new category of beverage in which some may mimic their alcoholic cousins, but there is so much awesome stuff out there. Now for those that can't go in any anywhere near anything that may in any shape or form, replicate an alcoholic drink. And having that information, I think it's going to be having a platform that has that information. on it, I think it's going to be so empowering and so beneficial to so many people's journeys.

Amy Armstrong  55:05  
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's always beneficial to have that communication in there. Can I ask you a question? 

Clinton Schultz  55:11  
Absolutely.

Amy Armstrong  55:12  
It's something that I've been thinking about a lot. And I'm going to do some more research into that, as a doctor, you may have an answer for me. And this is the non ALC, with the kids question. So my daughter who's five, she understands, because she's around me all the time that what I drink is non alcoholic, and she understands that I don't drink alcohol anymore, and that I don't behave like an idiot anymore. But a lot of people, especially now that there's more non alc popping up in supermarkets, and at kids eye level are arching up about that a little bit. And they're concerned that their kids want to get a beer so they can drink a beer like dad or something like that. Then there was also when an event that I was running it, like a 16 year old wanted to buy a heeps. Normal. And we we weren't sure on how to approach that, because that's a really grey area as well. So what are your thoughts around? I guess, if the kids seeing you still sat there having a beer? Yeah. How does that sit with you? And what are your thoughts around that?

Clinton Schultz  56:20  
Yeah, there's a few integrated, but separate issues within that. The first one is that, as I said earlier, it's not the site that is leading to the problem. It's not the sight of it on a shelf. The problem the association is formed in the house. 

Amy Armstrong  56:37  
Yeahp, 

Clinton Schultz  56:38  
it's only through that association. So if dad's drinking the beer, and, and the kid wants one that looks like that, well, that's fucking dad's problem, his the one that's drinking the beer in front of the kid that is making the kid want to go and get a bottle. That's the same. So that is, that's the fucking issue. But nobody wants to look in their own backyard, Australia is full of people who want to use blame and excuse to get away from ownership and responsibility.

Amy Armstrong  57:03  
 Yeah, 

Clinton Schultz  57:03  
that's the clear, cold, hard facts. Now, some of those businesses that are pumping out beverages that look very... fucking identical to their alcoholic versions, I've got a problem with that being in shopping centers, because that is a alert mechanism or behavioral thing. So people see a green bottle, they go, okay, that green bottle equals that green bottle, because it has the exact same name on it, just because it doesn't say beer, it may say a brand name, etc. That Association, I think is problematic. But not the fact that it's non alcoholic beer. It's the association with the packaging. So again, that's another issue. It's, it's you know, whereas then you have a whole bunch of cafts. So you have us (Sobah), you have heaps normal, and others out there upflow, and others that we don't have an alcoholic version, we're not trying to base ourselves on anything I can, nobody would know, it's got the tiniest little word beer on the rim at the top, it's got Sobah, I'm not fucking trying to hide what we do. I'm trying to promote, make a different choice. So I don't have a problem with it being in the shopping center, I think the way that it is represented and what is being represented and how that is being represented, is what makes the difference there. You know, and I gave an example when I did an interview recently on this that if you go to say the UK, alcohol is sold in the shopping center. There's whole fucking aisles, have it in the shopping center. Not every person in those countries is an alcoholic. But they've all grown up seeing it when they did the shopping. 

Amy Armstrong  58:45  
Yeahp. 

Clinton Schultz  58:45  
So it's not the only element that's problematic. You then have a whole bunch of people for whom going to a bottle shop might be the most triggering thing. In their recovery. They don't want to go to a shop, they don't want to go to the liquor shop to buy they're not out beverage, they want to stay the fuck away from that. So where else are they supposed to get it? Because they also don't want to wait five days all the time for it to come in the mail. So I think we need to be able to cater for everybody's situations. Be very mindful of how we position and how we market what we're doing. And that that is actually empowering because it's empowering People's Choice, rather than removing, and we all know what it's like to have choices removed from your life. 

Amy Armstrong  59:34  
Yep. 

Clinton Schultz  59:35  
So what's your position on it?

Amy Armstrong  59:37  
so what about the case of like a 16 year old wanting to drink non alcoholic beer

Clinton Schultz  59:43  
in many countries around the world. Kids grow up drinking non alcohol versions, you know, be at Wine, be it Beer. They call kitty wine or kitty beer in many different countries. They don't all grow up to be alcoholics. Again, it's about palate association. So palate and food, about relationship and about this ceremony as such of enjoying situations rather than it has to do with the alcohol. So we know that that in many countries is already a given. We also know that non alc beer is better for people then soft drink. So while none of us should be promoting to children, I think that if we are going to demonize non alc because if it's the devil is going to lead to a whole bunch of alcoholics that we should probably be taking things like caffeine drinks and energy drinks shelf because it might drive everybody to be a fucking crack addict. 

Amy Armstrong  1:00:40  
Yeahp *laugh*, 

Clinton Schultz  1:00:40  
becuase they become overstimulated get used to being stimulated, so they want to find the next highest stimulation. So, you know, in societies, we, we make some funny associations at time that aren't always grounded in, in realities, they are grounded in opinions. They are grounded in fear a lot of the time, rather than than realities. We don't advertise to kids. Never do we advertise to kids. But if a parent buys a non ALC product, and shares that with their kid, and that's been their determined decision, I'm not going to make a judgment on them. For that, 

Amy Armstrong  1:01:17  
yeah. 

Clinton Schultz  1:01:18  
You know, my, my kids drink our products at different times. My 13 year old hates it, he says, disgusting. So he'll probably never enjoy beer. Good on him. But, you know, my 11 year old, he enjoys the flavor, he doesn't necessarily like soft drink. So I'm not going to tell him that he can't have a flavor. Because others say that it it mimics alcohol, that is the confusion being driven into children. They're associating a flavor profile, and a beverage with alcohol. And we need to disassociate those things. So that can again comes back to parents, making it very fucking clear with their own kids the stipulation around that and that comes to role modeling. My kids don't see alcohol in the house, they call it silly drink. They know what I used to be like they call it silly drink, because apparently I was silly when I was on it. They have seen me sober for seven years, they very much more appreciate how I am as a human being now. And I try and role model that every single day. And yeah, I hope that rubs off on my kids. To be honest, 

Amy Armstrong  1:02:30  
It should do right?

Clinton Schultz  1:02:33  
So yeah, I'm not going to make judgments on what people do with with their own kids. I understand legalities and legalities, and that this is a very gray area within within law. And while it may not be illegal for kids to consume, I know that most of the retailer's won't sell, which I think is a good thing.

Amy Armstrong  1:02:51  
No. So they don't, they don't sell. So if you want to buy non alcoholic beer in the supermarket, you can't unless you're 18.

Clinton Schultz  1:02:58  
Most of the big chain supermarkets will pull you up like when if you try and scan, it will come up with the BBB. And then the person will ask you to show ID same as a spray can. You know, we know that everybody that's trying to buy spray paint isn't a graffiti artist, but they will still put those checks in place because they will they will toe the more conservative line. 

Amy Armstrong  1:03:20  
Yep. Awesome. Thanks. 

Clinton Schultz  1:03:23  
no worries at all? So if there was one last piece of advice that you would love to give to any of our listeners who are listening in on this podcast? What would that be?

Amy Armstrong  1:03:36  
That's a tough question. I think you've just got to find what works for you. And run with it. So like for me, Anne Grace and non alc perfect, perfect equation. And going - stopping hard. And then that's it perfect equation. To some people, it might take them a couple of years of mindful drinking before they think about removing alcohol from their lives. It's just about being aware of what you're doing and making a decision. And sticking by that and but doing it with, like your truth in mind and what you know, will work and what is a sustainable approach, I think,

Clinton Schultz  1:04:29  
awesome. So find what works for you and be brave in following that path.

Amy Armstrong  1:04:34  
Yeah. It's scary. It's a big change to make its a big disruption but its worth it

Clinton Schultz  1:04:43  
absolute, Thank you very much, Amy. It's been awesome having the opportunity to have a yarn with you this afternoon and I wish you all the best in both your continued journey in this space. And with dry not wet, Gaba nindu. Thank you.

Amy Armstrong  1:04:58  
Thank you

Clinton Schultz  1:05:00  
Amy may come across too many on first appearances as a well educated middle class woman who is unlikely to have experienced adversity, racism, or many negative life events, and should therefore have lived a relatively stress free life. Her story though, shows that stress is forever present and comes in many shapes and forms and impacts on everyone. For instance, Amy may not have experienced racism, but has undoubtedly experienced multiple episodes of both personal and systemic sexism. The Forever existence of stress is something that I learned from Maya, the wind, Maya is always with us. Sometimes she blows so slight that we can't notice a presence. Other times she blows with such force that nothing in her path is safe. Maya can come from any direction and can change directions in seconds. Maya is forever everywhere and for everyone. She may rest at times, but she never stops her journey. At any given time, she always causes pressure as she twists and turns and moves from place to place. This pressure is experienced by everything in different ways. A butterfly may struggle to fly straight in the slightest of breezes, but may be able to freely glide along in the hardest gust without injury. Whereas the tree may barely move in the breeze, but have branches snapped off in the gust stresses forever present. Me has had to deal with many pressures across her life, many of which I can never understand as a man. I can never know what it's like to face a paternalistic society as a woman. But I can accept that is difficult for many, many women. The stresses and pressures she is confronted with may vary from that of my own, and that of which may many of you listening may experience but the reality is stress is still present. What's a breeze for me maybe a gust for someone else like me and vice versa. Nature has learned to live with the Forever presence of male we can learn to live with the Forever presence of stress to Amy took control of how she chooses to cope with the Forever presence of stress. She removed alcohol as a coping strategy and introduced more positive strategies such as relaxing in the bath. She removed a focus on the opinions of others and trying to fulfill these and replace this with finding a why for living and thriving. Gaba nindu.