Sobah Life Podcast
Sobah Life Podcast
Jeremy Donovan
EPISODE 4: Jeremy Donovan, Walking with Wisdom
Jeremy Donovan is one of Australia’s most celebrated First Nations' keynote speakers, performers, and artists. A proud Kuku-Yalanji man, Jeremy draws on his personal experiences of adversity and expertise in First Nations culture and values to speak about Indigenous disparity. From the influence of Jeremy’s grandfather and Elders from his community, he has gathered knowledge and understandings of his amazing Cultural heritage which he is able to impart to others.
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Jeremy is an accomplished and published artist, musician, and poet. Jeremy has produced works for Nestle, David Jones, LendLease, Suncorp Bank, and Officeworks. In 2019 Jeremy completed two of the largest individual pieces of Aboriginal artwork measuring 14.1m for LendLease and the historic Barangaroo business district.
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Working with youth is one of Jeremy’s great passions. He travels to both remote and urban communities working with youth development. Jeremy’s work with youth is based around building self-esteem, self-worth, and gaining a greater understanding of Identity - the same battle Jeremy once faced. His message is powerful, purpose-based, and straightforward.
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Disclaimer: Sobah Life Podcasts may contain explicit content relating to social-emotional wellbeing concerns such as abuse, addiction, self-harm and suicide. If you are likely to be offended or triggered by the discussion of these topics we recommend you do not listen to our podcasts. Sobah Life is not intended to replace professional help. If you have any concerns about your social and emotional wellbeing, you should consult your doctor or mental health practitioner. If you are triggered by any of the content of our podcasts and need immediate assistance you can call Lifeline (13 11 14), Beyond Blue (1300 22 4636) or if you are a young person, Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800). A further list of crisis hotlines can be reached at:
https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/mental-health-services-infographic
Clinton Schultz 0:43
Yaama maliyaa. Welcome to Sobah life. A podcast that delves into people's lived journeys from merely surviving through to thriving. We yarn with people from all walks of life, who have been rock bottom and have found the strength, courage and determination to pick themselves up and to keep on going. We'll hear their stories, share their laughs, and shed a few tears while learning a truckload about living along the way. The stories are raw, and real. Sobah life is proudly brought to you by Sobah beverages Australia's first non-alcoholic craft beer company and is hosted by me, Dr. Clinton Schultz. Gamilaraay man and psychologist. If anything in these yarns triggers you, and you need immediate help, please ensure to yarn up, you can contact Lifeline Beyond Blue or if you're a young person, Headspace or Kids Helpline.
Welcome back to Sobah life everybody thanks for joining us again for those that haven't listened before, thank you for coming along those that are returning thank you very much for coming back and listening to us again. Today we're fortunate enough to speak to a very good friend of mine, Jeremy Donovan, world-renowned singer, performer, artist, and a man of many other tricks as well but I'm not going to speak too much about him because I know he likes to talk a lot about himself so I'm actually going to hand it over to Jeremy to introduce yourself and start kicking off this yarn morning Jeremy.
Jeremy Donovan 2:02
Thank you brother, and to all the listeners thank you it's a pleasure to be on the podcast this morning with my good brother and you know good friend. I'm a really proud Kuku Yalanji man and/or Western Yalanji, we're Nyungkal people from the western part of the Yalanji region but now I'm living up here in East Kimberley up on Miriwoong country, and it's an honor to be, I guess, you know, sharing this space with you Clinton on the podcast on the Sobah Life Podcast. So thanks for having me.
Clinton Schultz 2:36
It's an absolute pleasure. And as you know, this pod is all about people sharing their journeys through some of the struggles that they've had throughout their life, and really yarning up about the things that have helped them along those journeys to get them to the, I guess, to the more happy places that they find themselves today. And, you know, I'm well aware of much of your story, and we've had many yarns over both our backgrounds over the years. But would you mind sharing with, our listeners some of your own story?
Jeremy Donovan 3:07
Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned, I mean, I think for everyone, life is a journey, you know, and it's, it's one that sometimes poses, you know, incredible challenges and difficulties. And I guess, like, just like your own journey, it's about, sort of rising, rising above some of those obstacles and sort of seeing where we can make the, you know, the biggest impact and I think, for me, so much of my, my own struggles, and overcoming the struggles is about how I can, you know, ...learn from... learn from the life that I've sort of lived in and be able to impart some of that story back to others that are having similar struggles. And so, as a young person growing up, I was completely disconnected from identity that, you know, culture wasn't, sort of, you know, it wasn't a privilege that I was given as a young person growing up and I was completely removed from family. I was completely, you know, sort of disconnected from culture, and sort of went through the challenges of, you know, sort of having no identity as a result of, you know, sort of the absolute displacement that I found myself in as a young person growing up and, through those challenges, I think of, of missing out... I draw so much strength today from my cultural identity, that without that identity as a young person, I found myself you know, in some really challenging places. As a young person growing up school was incredibly challenging as a result of the system that, you know, that I was raised in, and then sort of heading into my early teenage life. I find myself making some, you know, pretty tough life choices around sort of drugs and alcohol, and then finding myself, you know, sort of in front of the court system at 13 years old. And then finding myself in the systems of, you know, sort of incarceration and, and then the cycle that that presents and the cycle that we know, so many young Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people find themselves in trapped in. In this, you know, sort of rotating door whereby, you know, prison becomes sort of a, it's easier to find our pathway to prison than it is to find a pathway to you know, graduating from school. And so, you know, that was certainly the life that I was living it as a teenager. And it wasn't until when I was 18 when I moved, and left Sydney and move back to, you know, find North Queensland with my, with my grandparents and started to really, I guess I had to rebuild myself at that point, with a really positive cultural identity that I defined my identity as a teenager, at 13 years old, I distinctly remember standing in Glebe Children's Court, and I was going to the bathroom before, you know, before my hearing, and I shut the bathroom door and there was an Aboriginal flag painted on the back of the door in the court. And I made almost a conscious decision that this was where I was going to find my identity and, you know, I really built quite a fraudulent identity based on incarceration versus, you know, sort of the positivity that I was able to, you know, sort of find, once I found my way back to, you know, Far North Queensland and into being with my grandparents. To me life, you know, sort of really started to turn itself around at 18 years old, when I left Sydney and went back up to Far North Queensland, and, you know, really, cemented an understanding of, or begin to cement or build the foundations of what, what identity meant to me. And I certainly know that I wouldn't have been able to do that without the, I guess the strengths of the old people that I had around me. That they were so critical to really allowing me to begin the healing process of, you know, sort of healing through the grief and the trauma that I've been part of, that I'd experienced as a young child. And then also, as you know, in my early teens, that I didn't realize the impacts I had. Well, I don't think anyone sort of understands the impacts of trauma, you know, sort of in your adolescence, and it's not until you start to mature a little bit, that we start realizing the impacts of the situation and the circumstances that were being raised in, really have sort of shaped sort of your outlook on life. And at 18 years old, when I first moved back up to North Queensland. I was a really broken young man that I was, you know, I've been subjected, I had subjected myself to incredible amounts of abuse and addiction, and it really... You know, I often talk about my life really didn't... wasn't able to begin in a really healthy manner until I found my way back to country and, you know, there's, there's a couple of major, sort of factors that helped the process or help the pathway to beginning that healing journey. And, you know, one was, you know, my grandfather was an incredibly instrumental person, and even in his passing, you know, he, like, he continues to be an incredibly, you know, instrumental person and figure and, I guess, he imparted so much knowledge and wisdom with me that if he really was critical to any of my process of healing, and then country, you know, just finding my way home to country, and understanding, you know, our relationship to our "Bubu" to our land is, you know, was was also incredibly instrumental around allowing me the space to be nurtured where I could begin that pathway to healing and then obviously, with that, you know, with country and with, you know, sort of the right old people around me, I was able to start learning culture and, you know, I've been incredibly privileged in terms of what the old people, you know, not just of my own country, but of all the countries that, you know, I was able to visit in those early days with my grandfather, when we were, you know, sort of we traveled right the way across, you know, sort of, the top part of Northern Queensland and across the Gulf and up in the northeast Arnhem Land, like the old people that you know, sort of that really, that had significant impact on on my life and giving me a really stable platform for you know, for defining, redefining my cultural identity, which was, you know, sort of my Indigeneity was based around you know, sort of the incarceration and that, you know, and that...
Clinton Schultz 9:42
...For sure...
Jeremy Donovan 9:42
...piece and so, it's...
Clinton Schultz 9:44
...and it's interesting...
Jeremy Donovan 9:44
...to be able to read...
Clinton Schultz 9:45
...you mentioned, a couple things that you know, I come up with a lot of the young fellows that both you and I have worked with across time and also family members and good friends that we've had yarns with and that's issues of the system, and issues of identity that really drives us a well away from having an opportunity to experience wellness. Like, what do you think that it? Was that mostly impacted on you? Do you think it was the systemic issues that drove you from identity? Or do you think it was the loss of identity that led you to becoming part of the system?
Jeremy Donovan 10:25
Yeah, I think it was a loss of identity.
Clinton Schultz 10:27
...Yeahp...
Jeremy Donovan 10:27
you know, because, sort of the life that I was growing up in was, there was no identity. And so, as a young person that, you know, sort of was disconnected from family, you find yourself trying to define an identity and, you know, we define our identities by the people that, you know, we associate with, we hang around with...
Clinton Schultz 10:46
...Gravitate towards (yeah, yeah, yeah)...
Jeremy Donovan 10:46
And unfortunately, like anything that when you have a really broken, you know, perspective of the world and a broken outlook on the world, you find yourself gravitating, you know, gravitating to other people, who come from similar walks of life. And so... and in that you find yourself, I guess, circled by, by other people that are making the same, you know, sort of toxic life choices, and you find yourself part of the system. That I mean, there's no doubt that once you're, once you're entrapped in that system that, you know, sort of the racial policies of our country that we know, still exists when it comes to incarceration of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people...
Clinton Schultz 10:54
...for Sure...
Jeremy Donovan 10:56
You know, further, ingrain that powerlessness and the pain, you know, it perpetuates pain. And, you know, sort of even in those... in the environment of incarceration, there's no consideration for human repair.
Clinton Schultz 11:45
And there's no, there's no opportunity to learn a positive identity when you're in/ as part of that system either...
Jeremy Donovan 11:50
No, absolutely not. And there's also no, there's no capacity to dream when there's walls all around you. And in the, you know, in those places, people are not there inspiring you to dream to try and check...you know, to have a different outlook, as you almost feel like that your life has been scripted that this is what life is going to be like, and I know that I speak from a place of incredible privilege, because I'm one of the lucky people who made it out of that system. And I think back, you know, the people that I was, you know, knocking about with, as, you know, sort of a 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, unfortunately, not a lot of those brothers are around today. They've either, you know, sort of been, you know, they're entrapped in the system still, or, unfortunately, that they've passed away as a result of, you know, sort of the complexities of trauma that come from that life. And so...
Clinton Schultz 12:45
Now I've got, I've got my opinions on where we've shifted over the years, but I'd be really interested to hear from you as somebody who's been through the system, but also now still works with people who are stuck in that cycle. Do you think we've shifted very far in the 20 years since we've grown up?
Jeremy Donovan 13:03
Listen, I wish to say that we were advanced, you know, but earlier on in the year, I think it was back in June or July. I was at a child protection conference, and, you know, it hasn't changed. They're still talking about, you know, sort of where things are going wrong. We can articulate a pathway of exactly what didn't work, and yet we're still repeating it. And still continuing to try and, you know, to do things the same way that they were doing them 30, 40 years ago.
Clinton Schultz 13:04
...Definitely...
Jeremy Donovan 13:04
And in terms of the prison system, we're not advancing, we're not, we haven't, you know. You only have to look at the difference between sort of how places like Scandinavia with their prison system where I think they have a, you know, they have a 7% recidivism rate where we have a 76% recidivism rate. It's, you know, the truth around that is that over in those prison systems over in Scandinavia, they invest into human rehabilitation and human repair...
Clinton Schultz 14:06
...and healing...
Jeremy Donovan 14:07
and healing and it seems like our prison system seems to keep you know, investing into despair you know, and
Clinton Schultz 14:14
... it's, where stuck in this in this 200-year-old punitive system that is just about punishment rather than actual rehabilitation.
Jeremy Donovan 14:23
Exactly, once you go to jail that should be the punishment but once you're in jail, it should be based around rehabilitation of the individual and it just, it doesn't, you know. Our systems and even our society to some extent doesn't give us the ability to repair once we have made those mistakes and you know, even to the point you know, where our criminal records and our criminal history. It still places you in a position where you are forever judged based on you know, life choices that you've made. When you're applying for jobs you have to declare upfront, but, you know, do you have a criminal record? Do you have all these things? And I understand it, you know, as an element of safety to some pathways of work, but what it does is it locks a lot of good people out of delivering services to, to people that are making same similar life choices.
Clinton Schultz 15:18
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, it's like, I've been working with this young fella, you know, he's 20, 25 this year. And I've been working with him since he was 17. And he went straight, literally went straight from juvie into maximum security, and has pretty much spent his entire adulthood in maximum security, he got out for a couple of months was given no support at all, from the system. Basically, as a mechanism just to ensure they fucked up and they could lock him back up. Now he's not going to be one of the lucky ones. I really fear that you know, I'll never get to see this young man outside of those walls and to get to see him prosper, you know, and he's very much had a pathway like you. He came through child safety experience, a whole bunch of abuse, went straight into juvie then went straight into the big house. But as you said, You're one of the lucky ones. That's just not the... that's not the ordinary, is it?
Jeremy Donovan 16:16
No, it's not the ordinary, it's not the norm, you know, and I guess just Well, I, I take so much pride, and even, like, it makes me emotional,
Clinton Schultz 18:28
... Yeahp...
Jeremy Donovan 16:26
because I care so much about trying to help the (takes a breath). I care so much about trying to help other people find a pathway out of the place based on the pathway that helped me. And because, you know, and the emotions that come up now, are based around the fact that there were good, there were a lot of good young kids with me around that we just didn't have anything
Clinton Schultz 16:55
...yeah for sure...
Jeremy Donovan 16:55
there was no, there was no safety, there was no, there was no ability to build a platform for positivity. In terms of, you know, the things that we thrived on, were not the things that were going to give us life skills, you know, to live a prosperous life. And so, we were, there were no bad, we weren't bad kids, we just...
Clinton Schultz 17:16
... lost...
Jeremy Donovan 17:16
...we just had... we were lost in a society and trying to, you know, unfortunately, tried to define that identity for ourselves that were based on further perpetuating, you know, sort of pain, and, you know, but you don't, you can't understand that, at that age, you don't understand, you know, sort of that every time you walk through a traumatic experience, and, you know, the things that we saw, you know, like, I was a witness, someone been murdered, at, you know, 14 years old, that those... those things don't, they don't leave you,
Clinton Schultz 17:48
...yeahp...
Jeremy Donovan 17:49
and it's still today, you know, 40, at 41 years old, you know, it still has its effects.
Clinton Schultz 17:56
...yeahp...
Jeremy Donovan 17:57
And even in, you know, sort of the life that I live today, and you very much well experienced this with me, you saw me, you know, in a point where I was able to, you know, rise to incredible success through, you know, through my music, through my art through my performance, you know, through the public speaking. To achieve, you know, incredible heights in terms of, you know, sort of being recognized as one of the most influential public speakers in the country too, you know, producing artworks for ness cafe and for David Jones and some office works, too, you know, when I was the CEO, generation one is that you saw me, you know, so...
Clinton Schultz 18:37
...we'll get to that part of your journey soon brother, don't worry about that (little laugh).
Jeremy Donovan
I mean, so, I mean, you saw me in those places, but then you saw the fall that came from, which, you know, which came from the depression, it came from, finding myself in an environment where I felt underappreciated, and I didn't feel like if there was anyone, you know, sort of really loving me, like really giving me love and I found myself, you know, falling back down that cycle of sort of into a state of abuse again.
Clinton Schultz
It's, you know, it's an... it came up in one of the other yarns that I've had on this podcast, you know, when, when you've experienced rejection, you become more sensitive to rejection,
Jeremy Donovan 19:23
... yeah...
Clinton Schultz 19:23
because at the end of the day, we just want acceptance and love Yeah, and when you've experienced so much fucking rejection throughout your life, yeah, you're going to become sensitive, just the same as if you've experienced a fuckload of discrimination throughout your life. Yes, you're going to
Jeremy Donovan 19:35
...yeahp...
Clinton Schultz 19:35
become sensitive to that because it's an actually a protective mechanism sensitivity is there to help protect us from overexposure to these things that we know damage our well-being. And
Jeremy Donovan 19:47
...yeah...
Clinton Schultz 19:47
for some of us, those episodes just keep coming and coming and there's not enough periods of healing time in between the exposures. Has that been your experience?
Jeremy Donovan 19:58
Yeah, It certainly has been my experience, but it also has been... one of the other things is because I, you know, sort of built this sort of platformers of success around the music and the art, you know, the healing work, the public speaking. People knew my story, right. And so they're all, you know, look, he's come so far, so strong, he so resilient, you know, but people didn't realize that I was going to be subjected to a negative energy to be on that level all the time, then, all the time. And they don't realize that, that we crash and burn as well... is that like, every time I stood on stage, *Bark*my dogs yelling at me *laugh* every time I stood on stage, you know, the end told my story that you give a part of yourself away that, that hurts. And, you know, there were times where I jumped in my car after delivering a keynote. And, you know, I wouldn't be able to drive the car for an hour. And, you know, because the emotions that you know, because you, you walk that path of your own vulnerability, and the, the one thing that I've come to realize is that if you're not getting replenished, like if you're not receiving the love back for the love that you give, you find yourself empty, and in that time, as you know, in those states of emptiness is where, you know, really, where I found myself, you know, facing, the incredible demons of depression. Again, as a result, you know, made some pretty shitty life decisions, you know. I saw that you know, the devastation and the crash that came with, you know, my marriage dissolving, and the pain that have caused, you know, my ex-wife and the pain that have caused my kids as a result of the life that I was, you know, that I was living. And, you know, while I, while I'm certainly, you know, in a really, you know, good place today. I don't have regrets about, you know, sort of where I found myself because I've learned so much, and I'm also a much happier person. But there's, there's got to be a better way to do things.
Clinton Schultz 21:58
Yeah, definitely. Now I'm a true believer...
Jeremy Donovan 22:01
.. rather than blowing everything up...
Clinton Schultz 22:04
...yeah...
Jeremy Donovan 22:04
and just sort of discombobulate surrounds you, there are better ways to deal with your own unhappiness. And I think, unfortunately, when we come from pathways of trauma, we often, absolutely, we just blow everything up around us. And, you know, because, in many, in many aspects...
Clinton Schultz 22:24
..well it's easier to reject than to get rejected, right?
Jeremy Donovan 22:26
Exactly. Right. You know, because the pain hurts, the abandonment, you know, the fear of losing my kids, the fear of, you know, was the greatest fear that I faced. And so... and ultimately, I created that in one aspect of, you know, going through that period of divorce and everything that... I basically just, you know, I spent, you know, six months of my life just subjecting myself to incredible amounts of drug, you know, drugs, and, you know, as a coping mechanism, and just, you know, sort of, you know, pretending that everything was okay, but, you know, I realized I had a bit of a syndrome, you know, what I coined it, you know, the Robin Williams Syndrome, where I was, like, the life of the party.
Clinton Schultz 23:11
...Yeah...
Jeremy Donovan 23:11
but then everyone would go home, and I'd be dying inside.
Clinton Schultz 23:15
...Definitely...
Jeremy Donovan 23:15
And I think that's why, you know, when I really crashed and burned, is that nobody saw it coming, because everyone was like, you know because I didn't reach out. All the things that I was giving advice around, around talking to people about asking for help around, reaching out, I wasn't able to do myself, because I was, I felt afraid of all the people that you know, I would let down in a way, you know...
Clinton Schultz 23:39
...for sure...
Jeremy Donovan 23:39
in doing so in my own fear. I let everyone down anyway.
Clinton Schultz 23:43
Yeah, I completely understand where you're coming from. With that. And I've been through that cycle myself multiple times, as you're well aware. I'm a true believer, and I'd love to get your sort of take on this. I'm a true believer in that all our young people need to be afforded the opportunity to learn the pot, the beautiful, positive aspects of our lore and culture, and that is our strongest way to being well into the future. What's your thoughts on that?
Jeremy Donovan 24:14
100% that law and culture, You know, it's, it's interesting, because, you know, when I really crashed and burned, and, you know, I was exploring a whole lot of different options around, you know, sort of asking, you know, I had to, you know... The first thing I had to go through WorkCover, and I had to go to see psychologists that were completely ill experiences to do with, you know, to deal with what I lived through in my life. I remember sitting in the room sort of with, with this, you know, with a young woman who was sort of a newly graduated psychologist who was going to you know, who I asked I said, How do you think you're ever going to help me like it, you know, have you experienced death? Have you experienced suicide? Have you seen people, you know, hanging in mango trees? Have you know, have you held your friend, as, you know, sort of bleed to death? I asked. All these.
Clinton Schultz 25:00
...yeahp...
Jeremy Donovan 25:00
And I was like, Well, how do you expect to be able to even give me any support? You know, and unfortunately, I was assessed as being aggressive, because I was just asking the question of how, how you expect to be able to give me support when you don't understand the life that I've lived in any capacity and that, you know, like, I reached around to so many different things. And, you know, it was amazing how many people wanted to make my trauma about my indigeneity when my indigeneity my culture, and my law was the one thing that was actually positive and stable in me
Clinton Schultz 25:36
...Yawu...
Jeremy Donovan 25:37
and it's, I think you're 100% right, that I look at, you know, sort of the dysfunction that, you know, that young people are facing across acute across communities around Australia. And one of the problems is is that, you know, the policies of this country in the past have fractured our ability to take our young, young people through law and culture, or have removed our ability to govern our society with, you know, with law and culture. And as a result, you know, we have kids that have come, they have this identity of their Aboriginal... Aboriginality... but they don't have any concept of what it is, what it is, and how to allow it to grow
Clinton Schultz 26:23
What it is to be.
Jeremy Donovan 26:25
Yeah, what it is to be Aboriginal and the responsibility that comes with caring law and culture.
Clinton Schultz 26:29
*mmm*
Jeremy Donovan 26:30
Because, you know, that was the biggest thing that, you know, I came to realize, you know, sort of under the guidance of, you know, my grandfather, my grandfather's brothers and you know, other respective elders is that with the knowledge that was being imparted to me came incredible responsibility.
Clinton Schultz 26:48
...Yawu..
Jeremy Donovan 26:48
and an incredible privilege to be able to carry, you know, those stories, and teachings and wisdoms and, you know, understanding. What obligations I had back to, you know, my community moral obligations I had back to my family, but what obligations I have to society as well when you carry that
Clinton Schultz 27:07
absolutely, and, you know, we've both been through sort of similar passage where it wasn't until our you know, ...early... early, late teens early adulthood where we've had the opportunity to sort of reconnect at that deeper level with who we are as our actual peoples for me Gamilaraay and for you Kuku Yalanji and it seems that for both of us that's been one of the most protective things for getting us back on track and really making the difference between both of us being able to have been privileged positions and able to have professional you know careers now rather than be in jail to be honest
Jeremy Donovan 27:46
yeah absolutely there's no question about it is that you know without culture without you know the things that come with culture so the music you know, my music, my artwork, but you know, my music and my art is my healing you know, and but it's also been an incredible platform for me to be able to you know, to see the world and to travel the world and you know performance some of the most incredible places and you know have my artwork on the walls of you know, sort of you know well regarded and respected institutions that you know that my culture and the law that sort of my old people gave me is the thing that I need to be able to use as much as possible. When I do find myself falling down
Clinton Schultz 28:29
You're registered with Sotheby's arent ya?
Jeremy Donovan 28:31
Yeah, I am you know so...
Clinton Schultz 28:33
That's no Little Feat. That's a massive achievement as an artist to be recognized at that level
Jeremy Donovan 28:38
...Yeah I mean... Yeah. And you know, I'm privileged you know, like the two pieces of artwork that I create for Barangaroo down in Sydney you know, are like two of the largest individual pieces of Aboriginal artwork in the world you know, once 14 meters and the other ones 13.6 meters long but they're incredibly you know, these are pieces of artwork that are stories that were you know, sort of taught to me by my grandfather and old people and now are on the walls of these, you know, buildings that will, who knows how long they'll live for,
Clinton Schultz 28:48
*mmm*
Jeremy Donovan 28:59
You know, my artwork is, you know, it's you know, even you know, moving up to you know, the East Kimberley at the beginning of this year and you know, sort of my artwork continues to be collected and bought from people around the world and it's, you know, It is my way of keeping healthy that to paint and it's also to me, I reflect back on it now and I recognize that after you know, sort of the continue the rises, the falls, the rises, the falls, I realized that you know, when I'm painting it's actually a symbol of happiness. And so I know that I'm in a really good space and when I'm not painting... it's you know, it's often a reflection that you know, something inside me is not quite right. And so you know, now I've got enough, now I've become conscious enough of, of that, you know, that when, when I'm in a really happy place on drawn to constantly paint, you know, and since I've been up here, in the East Kimberly, like, you know, I've been consistently painting, you know. I might, you know, once I finish a painting, I might stop for, you know, a week or two because you fatigue, you know, one thing I've, you know, I've found was sort of the focus and I guess the amount of intent that I put into my artwork is that I do I fatigue, you know, I'm also working with Miriuwung Gajerrong Corporation. In the Native Title, body, and, you know, then coming home and painting for four hours every day. So I'm conscious of, you know, sort of fatiguing myself, but my artwork is truly a symbol of happiness. And so, when I'm painting, I know, I'm happy. And if I go for large periods of time, where I'm not painting, I stop and check with myself. So I was like, what's going on? Where's my imbalance? And what do I need to do to get back on track? And so I think, you know, one of the... one of the parts of the resilience to, you know, people like yourself and me, we carriers that we have, we've gotten foresight, from our own trauma now go, Well, what makes us happy? What is happiness? And how do we, you know, if we find ourselves, you know, sort of treading down a path of, sort of, I guess, the cyclones of trauma, we can stop, and we can realign ourselves? And we also have good people now, that we also know, who are the right people to talk to, you know, like, I certainly know, brother that, I would pick up the phone to someone like yourself, you know, as a brother and just say, you know, just give me a, you know, a headspace check, you know, to where I'm at...
And I think that's, that's the important thing, and I really think that's a really important thing for, for us as Aboriginal men is who? who are the people that we can turn to and ask for help? or just have a young with that really, you know, that is because the dysfunctions of our society have seen, you know, so many of our men only open up or talk when, when alcohol or drugs are involved. And we know that that's another place where we should be exposing our own traumas, because often when we open, you know, alcohol is a gateway for trauma to be exposed, but then we don't have the capacity to put a lid on that trauma.
Clinton Schultz
yeah for sure
Jeremy Donovan 32:17
So it all comes flooding out. And the overwhelm of grief and trauma becomes catastrophic.
Clinton Schultz 32:23
And I guess that gets to that. Now to a point of you mentioned resilience and, you know, sometimes people think that when we appear to be these very resilient (uuuuh) beings, men, that all of a sudden, they think we're invincible, that things shouldn't get to us shouldn't bring us down, but we're not we're still breakable. You know, I often explain resilience to people is nothing more than a rubber band. And that rubber band can come in many different sizes, but still can be stretched far enough to break no matter how thick it is. So it's important that people do recognize that things will still get to you that you still do need to look out for your own well being so you can be the best for others, despite how resilient others may be perceiving that you actually are, like, you were saying, you know, you've got to take time to actually consider how much of my energy Am I putting into work and then coming home and painting, like, if you just do that constantly, you end up burning out. And I think you probably more than anybody else know, what burnout can lead to, you've had some pretty incredible episodes, of burnout and work, work fatigue. Tell us about, you know, one of those, like, I've seen you when, when this has really got to you and...
Jeremy Donovan 33:46
I mean, you know what, there was a time where I just ...were, you know, it all got to me. At the height of, you know, when I was CEO and advisor to, you know, to Twiggy around generation one and I led the federal government all the way to the adoption of the V tech policy. And, you know, I found myself on level 32 of Liverpool Street and Sydney, and I was completely disconnected from all the things that give me strength and happiness. And there were a couple of things that happened in the pathway of work and you know, that saw me crash and burn ...and everyone around... I wanted to quit my job and everyone around me was like, Why? Why are you so unhappy, you've got a good job, you earn a shitload of money? But money didn't make me happy. And money wasn't, you know, important to me. I mean, money is important because we needed to survive, but, you know, sort of, I give money away as fast as I own it. And, you know, I found myself in... where I wasn't... I just... I felt underappreciated, you know, and it was probably a lot of my own trauma. That was, and the lens that I placed over it, but I wasn't coming home to, you know, a wash that made me happy. I didn't feel appreciate in a way and, you know, I've crashed and burned. I remember you know, sort of just almost throwing the towel in and I walked into Sydney Airport you know, I had my passport in my hand I looked at the flight schedule. And you know, and I looked at the board and I was like," fuck this" I'm just going and I didn't tell anyone in fact, I told my ex-wife was like that, you know, I was going away for work and I called work and told them I was going away with family. And I walked into the Sydney Airport and I looked on the first light that came up on the board was San Diego and so I booked a ticket to San Diego and then a book from San Diego to Lima. And then when I arrived in Lima, I booked a ticket... I walked out of the airport and up to where the private you know, sort of the hangars are and I found sort of this you know, some little Peruvian you know, pilot who I'm sure was half cut on on Peruvian jungle Juice. And he flew me to Iquitos.
Clinton Schultz 35:57
*Giggle*
Jeremy Donovan 35:58
And I find myself in the middle of you know, sort of the gateway of the Amazon and I jump on this little tok tok and travel six hours up the Amazon. I chucked my laptop overboard, I chucked my mobile phone overboard, I chucked my clothes overboard. The only thing I had with me was the didgeridoo in my flute and my passport and some cash. And, I didn't tell anyone that I was going on. And, you know, I find myself with the jaguar of people who visited, you know, probably six years prior, but you know, the Amazon with the amount of water that flows through that, that place the landscape changes pretty quickly. And so, I get dropped off from this little tok tok in, you know, by a little sort of, like little Amazonian tour guide who thinks that I'm in the right place, you know. and here's my six-foot, you know, six foot one and 100 kilos with a didgeridoo. And I started I just walked into the jungle and I was walking for about three hours before I came across jaguar people. You know, I had the best two weeks of my life in terms of, there was no English there was no, there was I didn't speak Spanish, they didn't speak English. They didn't speak, you know, I didn't speak their, you know, their First Nations language. And they certainly didn't speak mine. So we drew pitches in the sand and, but I had this incredibly beautiful experience, and it allowed me to completely remove myself from the sadness, and, you know, it was an escape. At the end of the day, you know, what I did was no different to masking my trauma and pain with, with drugs, it was an escape I took off from the world, I don't really know what I thought was gonna happen. But you know, I arrived back into civilization, you know, and in that time absolute chaos and ensured in my family. And nobody knew, you know, my ex-wife had contacted my work and my work had said, Now here's the way with family. And they were like, Well, Nah, he said he was going away with me. Nobody knew where I was, I was listed as a missing person. You know, I was sort of detained coming back to a customs .....I, you know,... because obviously, I'd been in South America.
Clinton Schultz 37:58
There was some credit card records showing where... whereabouts (*laugh*) you'd kind of drifted. (both have a little laugh).
Jeremy Donovan 38:04
Yeah, so I mean, it's Yeah, but once I got to Lima, nobody knew where I was because I paid cash to get from Lima to Iquitos. And so, I guess, you know, but it causes absolute chaos because then I had to confront it when I came back home.
Clinton Schultz 38:20
...Yeah...
Jeremy Donovan 38:20
...When the shit was still all there...
Clinton Schultz 38:21
...but I seen you, within a couple of weeks before that happened, and I seen you like, afterwards, and you seemed so much better...
Jeremy Donovan 38:31
...Yeah, I mean...
Clinton Schultz 38:32
Sometimes these things have to happen, sometimes we have to have a reset. And that was that was a major reset *Little giggle*. I don't think we all have to go that far out of our way to reset at times. But I think it is important that we recognize that sometimes things will become overwhelming, and it's okay to hit the reset button. What do you think?
Jeremy Donovan 38:51
Yeah, I think it is, you know, but I think people like it, and people like me, we sometimes push things to the absolute extreme. And we take things too far. And as a result, you know, sort of, we cause a whole lot of chaos around us. But it was honestly one of the best resets For me it was it was wonderful. And so I ummm ....you know, and it's a trip that I'll remember forever, and it's a trip other people in my family will remember forever, because it kind of, you know, put everyone in a spin, but you're 100% right like I needed. I needed that time.
Clinton Schultz 39:24
Yeah. And, and it really did show that you know, money is not the most important thing in the world. And sometimes we need to be honest about that. Sometimes we need to recognize that there's far more important things to our well-being then too much bangu that you know what to do with. Like family, like culture, like being on country and being on somebody else's country at sometimes.
Jeremy Donovan 39:46
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, being on country to me is one of the most, you know, most important things that I have and even you know, sort of the decision to come back up here and live up here was incredibly important. For me, yeah.
Clinton Schultz 40:01
So explain to us what being on country means to you.
Jeremy Donovan 40:05
Oh well, to me being on country is everything, you know. I reflect back on sort of rebuilding my own life in terms of deposit, you know, that journey that I first went on when I left the prison system of, you know, of New South Wales and went back to my own country for the first time, but, you know, back in, in February, I made the decision to come up to live on Miriwoong country up here. And we're doing, you know, there was a, there was a purpose to, you know, me making that decision is that I knew that Sydney was not a good environment. For me, I knew that the city was not a good environment, but I know that I thrive when I have culture around me. And so, you know, I made the decision to come up to the East Kimberley, and it's, you know, it's been one of the most healing parts of sort my own personal journey in life, because, you know, I took myself out of the city, and came to an environment that was, you know, incredibly, you know, it's incredibly rich in terms of country and landscape, and it gives me the ability to, you know, at any point I could, you know, I work on country today. I live on country, and that's when I'm thriving, you know, and it influences my artwork, it influences everything.
Clinton Schultz 41:14
And we're, you know, you are Kuku Yalanji and I've got really strong connections with Kuku Yalanji through both yourself and also, Uncle that, you know, I've been fortunate enough to get mentored through and is your actual uncle being Mooks, and also my wife being born up in that area, what's Kuku Yalanji mean to you?
Jeremy Donovan 41:36
The rainforest, like, that's our mother, that's our, that's our boss, you know, and it's, it is hard, you know, it's hard when I found myself on the East Kimberley like, pretty much as far away from, you know, on the, on the absolute opposite side of the country. And especially with the border to, you know, exchanges, it hasn't allowed me to go home, because going home to country was something that I always did to help build my, you know, sort of build my own strength and my own sort of connection. And I think one of the challenges that we find ourselves in this day and age where, you know, the COVID restrictions have put incredible, you know, restrictions on us. Is that, you know, just as an as an Aboriginal man who, who's incredibly connected to country, and how important that rainforest and that landscape is to me, but I'm simply not allowed to go home at the moment.
Clinton Schultz 42:26
...I've got this... I've got the same situation you know, Gamilaraay, and most of my country lays in what is now known as New South Wales, and I can't even skip over the Bridge at Goondiwindi to go over on to country.
Jeremy Donovan 42:41
Yeah. So I mean, you know, the challenges that we facing, you know, today with the current climate of restrictions, I mean, it is, it's hard, you know, I came up here with the understanding that I'd still be able to travel back over east, you know, on a monthly basis, and, you know, after three months, the boarder has changed, and, you know, I haven't been able to get home to see my kids. I haven't been able to get home to see my family, you know, like you talk of Mooks, you know, I haven't been able to see him and that's the thing is that he's one of the most valuable people to me, in terms of, you know, he was part of the journey of my healing, you know, he saw me as a broken young 18 year old come back home for the first time, you know, was part of that, you know, sort of with my grandfather, you know, part of the reason why I was able to rebuild my life and find stability again, and so, when you get stuck away from the people who, who are the, you know, sort of biggest influences and teachers to you. It's, it's really, it's really difficult.
Clinton Schultz 43:38
And just going back to Mooks, you know, like, not only is he family, he is an incredibly gifted healer, as well. What, What does traditional healing actually... what place do you think traditional healing should play within our Australian society system, health systems these days, knowing because both of us know how incredibly positive and healing it actually can be, but many Australians are completely oblivious.
Jeremy Donovan 44:05
I think you know that like so many things is that, you know, people put these, you know, sort of fairy tales around or, you know, make things a bit too esoterical, you know, around our, you know. What our practices have traditionally heal, traditional healing have always been, you know, we know how significant and valuable and important to it, you know. When you talk to someone, like Mooks like, he's been part of every, you know, he was part of that whole, you know, sort of the journey of me going through law (lore) and understanding (lore) and culture and understanding, you know, the relationship that, you know, my old grandfather, you know, had with Maapun (healing) and teaching about, you know, sort of traditional healing and, you know. Both myself and Mooks have worked incredibly closely together around, you know, the practice of traditional healing and sharing that with, you know, sort of not just with community members, but with people from all around the world, you know. At times of... have come to see both myself and Harold for different aspects of healing and you know. Cultural healing is so critical, I think for Aboriginal people when, you know, when they're exposed to it and understand it and learn a pathway of how important it is that it is one of the, you know, one of the most important and most significant parts of healing. I think that we should be doing more to, to acknowledge the wisdom that comes with it from, you know, I remember when I had my own healing clinic up in on the Sunshine Coast at one point, and I had to close it down because the medical guild wouldn't recognize our traditional healers...
Clinton Schultz 45:36
Yeah can't get insurance
Jeremy Donovan 45:38
As a practice, and so I couldn't get insurance I was... I wasn't protected. And that was, that was unsafe.
Clinton Schultz 45:44
And that's the situation we're still seeing today. You know, there's some places in Australia. So South Australia is doing a much better role at incorporating traditional healing into the mainstream sort of health setting. But there's many areas, particularly here in Queensland, where we know we've got some really powerful, knowledgeable healers still in the state, but our system completely ignores the value of that form of healing, not just for us as Aboriginal peoples, but I think it also ignores that it can be a value to all Australians and that people would actually be quite embracing of that, you know, we embrace so many other alternative therapies as such, but yet we don't allow our First Nations Peoples to practice our ways of healing. And, you know, it's Indigenous business month and you know, they're always telling us that we should be a part of the economic system, and etc, etc. But yet, whenever we have these little avenues that could actually allow us opportunities to be a part of a system that maintains our connections to culture, they tend to hammer it down pretty quick. So we see it in the healing space, we see it in the traditional food space. What's your opinion on that?
Jeremy Donovan
I just think that there's, you know, things like, you know, well, well, things like reconciliation week and naidoc week, they're incredibly critical to, you know, the advancements of our own system and our society, you know. That we have today, I just think that we have to celebrate our culture on a daily basis. And we have to acknowledge that the richness of our culture is not something that should just be exploited over a two-week period. But it actually should be invested too, invested into over the whole 365 days of the year, over the whole, you know, sort of, you know, there should be longevity in seeing that. This is not just something Oh, right, we've got reconciliation, we're coming up, we're gonna get as many Aboriginal speakers, we're gonna get as many Aboriginal businesses to flood our, you know, flood our business, and then the week is over, you know, there's no continued investment, unless... businesses making incredible conscious decisions, like, I look at the relationship that I've had with Suncorp, you know, Suncorp Bank in terms of the production of the artwork that I did for Suncorp. And then this continued conversation that I've had with Suncorp around, in terms of the way that businesses operated, I could speak nothing but praise in terms of their ability to constantly communicate with me, every time they wanted to use my artwork, every time they wanted to use, you know, a fraction of my artwork, there was incredible cultural, you know, consideration. And I can only put that down to the fact that, you know, that the work that Mundanara Bayles has done with, you know, with Black Card, and the leadership that she's shown in terms of, you know, sort of influencing and educating...
Clinton Schultz
...pretty, they are pretty deadly, that whole, that whole family...
Jeremy Donovan
...Yeah, it's an incredible family, you know, one that I've got such admiration and respect and love for, you know, across that whole family and, you know, but in terms of that education that they're providing as not just like, it's not just a you know, this tokenistic cultural awareness training like this is, it's about culture, it's embedding cultural framework into the way businesses operate. And, you know, obviously, there's one business in terms of Suncorp, that both myself and Mundanara have shared, you know, continue to share working relationships with that individual business, but the way they engage me, I know, for a fact has been influenced by the work that Mundanara does. And, Black Card, that whole Black Card system. And I think that, you know, if more businesses invested into, you know, sort of, to really understand it, like having a cultural integrity to the way they engage Aboriginal business, they would, you know, there would be further conversation, because, you know, I've had experiences where, you know, businesses have, you know, bought my artwork, then publish my artwork. And then I find myself looking at a photograph from the Naidoc week, the following year. And there's one of my paintings that's been, you know, sort of printed and blown up and spread across a wall. And there's been no cultural engagement around. Are we allowed to even do that?
Clinton
Yeah, not even a conversation...
Jeremy Donovan 49:53
not even a conversation and then you find out... and then what happens is, I find myself in a position where if I raise it, am I being antagonistic? Am I being... making someone feel culturally unsafe? Am I...
Clinton Schultz 50:05
...you're an angry black?...
Jeremy Donovan 50:07
Yeah. And so, you know those things, you know, where I realized that we need to have more, more significant, you know, sort of cultural engagement and real integrity around the way they engage Aboriginal business?
Clinton Schultz 50:21
Absolutely. And, you know, how we run our business here at Sobah, and it's all run off the positive principles that, that come from, from my lore from my dhiriya Gamil, you know, and I actually think if mainstream business allowed us to share our ways of knowing and being with the more that actually see that our ways of doing business is just good business. Because it's actually about beyond the self and its actually about looking after others and place...
Jeremy Donovan 50:49
...it makes perfect sense.
Clinton Schultz 50:50
Yeah...
Jeremy Donovan 50:51
...exactly right, you know.
Clinton Schultz 50:51
...And it can still be profitable.
Jeremy Donovan 50:54
...Exactly right. And there's nothing wrong with being profitable, you know, like, that's the thing is, we should celebrate profitability in terms of, you know, our Aboriginal business, you know because we deserve to prosper in this society. That doesn't mean we're entitled to prosper, it means that we deserve to prosper were, where we succeed..
Clinton Schultz 51:10
...and we're far more likely to spread the love around as well.
Jeremy Donovan 51:13
100% You know, our families are pretty big, you know, an extended and, we have to, you know, sort of, and that has to have a big reach.
Clinton Schultz 51:20
So one of the things that we're actually doing here at the moment, and you know, I don't usually give plugs to Sobah on here, but I will, in this instance, because I'm talking to you and you are Kuku Yalanji, and what we're actually doing in this month, is every carton of our Lemon Aspen Pilsner that we sell, we're donating 10% of that to Half Cut Org, and then Half Cut Org will use that money to buy back Kuku-Yalanji country so that it can be gifted back. So we're, we're so stoked to be able to partner with them and be a part of such a wonderful initiative. But it did end up with me having to shave half my head off a few weeks ago...
Jeremy Donovan 51:57
...yeah, I saw that
Clinton Schultz 51:58
it was pretty rank.
Jeremy Donovan 52:00
But you can't fix ugly anyway bruhz. *both laugh*
Clinton Schultz 52:04
But as I said, it's a place that I'm very passionate about, because of the connections that I have with both people and the place. And so I feel very privileged that we have the opportunity in our very little way to be able to, to assist caring for that country. And I think that's a place that, again, business can learn from this, that we as businesses, we have a responsibility to actually care for this country and all country now that it's being shared by so many different peoples, and I think...
Jeremy Donovan 52:32
...And I agree...
Clinton Schultz 52:32
...they actually took on that responsibility, the far better world we would be living in.
Jeremy Donovan 52:37
Yeah, I mean everything that you guys are striving, and I know, your business, you know, fairly intimately, you know, as a result of sort of our relationship and the family's relationship and, you know, sort of the relationship we share with, you know with my, with my country, and I wish that you know, sort of other people would realize that no matter how big or how small, the contribution it is, is it makes a significant difference. I mean, what you guys are doing with Half Cut, and what they're doing in terms of, you know, sort of getting the lands back it's so impactful, you know, that every little bit, you know, makes a significant difference on us protecting our significant country. You know, and we just saw the celebration of that Native Title of Eastern Yalanji country coming, you know,
Clinton Schultz 53:24
...Yawu...
Jeremy Donovan 53:24
coming back to Yalanji country. And it just was, you know, it's an incredible opportunity for us to continue what has always happened in terms of the maintaining and the protecting of our lands.
Clinton Schultz 53:36
And that allows for the ongoing healing that, that land can offer to us to so many people, not just the traditional custodians, but I'm sure many would agree that when they visit those places, they feel healed.
Jeremy Donovan 53:47
Yeah, absolutely ....No, there's no question about it... That you know, that the idea that rain forests is a magic place of incredible healing. But, you know, all country has its, you know, when you when countries protected, you know, and I'm looking at the, you know, the landscape of the East Kimberley and, you know, privilege, a walk out my front door, and I see these incredible sorts of red rocks. I'm surrounded by it, and, you know, it's just healing for me to see country every day. You know, in reflection to where I found myself on level 32 of, you know, stuck in a concrete jungle, like, This, to me, I now understand is what I need for the best life, you know. That I can live my best life.
Clinton Schultz 54:32
Jezzer if there's one piece of advice that you'd want to leave with our listeners, particularly in a way, young fellas that are listening to this, what would it be?
Jeremy Donovan 54:42
That there are good people out there, and that, you know, finding and identifying who those good people are in your life. And there's no prescription to the good people in your life. It's about individually identifying who are good, good people for your own, you know, your own prosperity and your own health. Find those people and then be brave enough to ask for help because there's been times in my life, where I wasn't brave enough to ask for help. I was shame about it. And the one thing that I've come to understand is when I became brave enough to ask for help, there were good people out there that wanted to help me and so like never feel like it's weak to speak, you know because it isn't... it's actually empowering to speak.
Clinton Schultz 55:23
Beautifully put and thank you very much. And for all our listeners again. Jezza was kind enough to do the artwork for our Aniseed Myrtle Stout. So any of you who have bought that or have seen that and wondered where that artwork came from, that's a story that came from Jezza so we very much appreciate that I love and appreciate you brother, and thank you very much for sharing with us and giving up your time. I know it's a it was very early stop for you. So it was only 6 am when we kick this conversation off where you are this morning, so thank you for getting up early. I know you're not a morning person.
Jeremy Donovan 55:58
I am now, I am now... Alright brother.
Clinton Schultz 56:01
My yarn with Jezza reminds me of something I learned from Gindjurra – frogs, in my Gamilaraay language – about the importance of living in a healthy environment. One that is healthy for both our mind and spirit. Gindjurra are great indicators of the wellness of the environment in which they live. When Gindjurra are plentiful in an area you know that the land and the water are healthy. When there is pollutants in the area Gindjurra are the first to suffer as they absorb everything directly through their skin. Where I live at Gold Coast, Gindjurra used to be everywhere. When I was a kid it was easy to find them. Every night you would hear their call. They were easy to find sitting on or around ponds and creeks, clinging from tanks or pipes. When I moved my family to the Valley, we would often see Gindjurra. This is a story of one Gindjurra that often visited us. One day my young sons came running into the house saying “Daddy, Daddy, come see the frog! He’s huge!” It had been a long time since I had seen a large green tree frog, so I was quite excited and followed the kids straight out. Sitting in an empty pot next to our BBQ area was a huge, fat, shinny green tree frog, Gindjurra. He looked so healthy, his eyes were moist and glowing. He was well fed. We decided to help him out of the pot and put him in a tree in our yard. Gindjurra was calm while I gently picked him up. He just sat still on my hand while my boys and I admired him. We placed him gently in a nearby tree. The next day Gindjurra was back in the pot. For about two weeks each day we would fetch him out and place him in the tree, and the next day he was back in the pot. Over this period, I noticed Gindjurra was starting to change. He was getting skinnier, he wasn’t as shinny and he didn’t seem as alert. My boys and I were starting to really worry about him. We decided that he must want to be in the pot, so we decided to leave him there with some water for him to drink and swim. At the same time as Gindjurra was getting unwell a few things were happening in our lives. We were renovating and our environment was in disarray. The stress of renovating a house while trying to live and work is high. At the time, I was also having difficulties at my workplace, and I wasn’t coping well. I was drinking heavily and had very limited patience. I had little enthusiasm for exercise. So not only was our surrounding environment not the best, but the environment that I was creating in my mind and body, that my spirit had to live, in was fairly rotten as well. People were noticing and were commenting on me “not looking my best” and “being constantly cynical”. Gindjurra was reflecting the ill-health that was going on around us. Looking back on it I think Gindjurra was coming back every day to help me realise how sick I was, and that I was passing that onto others. Coincidentally, the same day Gidjurra disappeared for good, I decided I wouldn’t drink in front of the kids anymore and I put plans in place to leave my toxic workplace. The message we can take from Jeremy’s journey is similar. He was living in an environment that was not healthy and felt that people were pressuring him to remain despite it becoming more toxic. This led Jeremy to becoming unwell, mentally, physically, and spiritually, to feeling like he was disconnected from his culture, but he kept returning every day. He finally passed the point at which his resilience would not let him get through another day in that toxic environment, so he fled. Exactly like Gindjurra, we are completely reliant on the environment around us. We attempt to control the environment around us but often much of our environment is out of our control. What we do have control over is to stay or go. Sometimes we need to decide to leave the environment for our own wellbeing, sometimes we make the decision to stay and battle on hoping for better. Like that Gindjurra, Jeremy absorbed all the “toxicity” around him. He was both letting the agendas and expectations of others impact negatively on him and projecting his own negative coping on others he was connected too. This had a flow on effect to his personal life, his family and home, and workplace. Things quickly fell apart. Workplaces are environments that we exist in for good periods of our lives. When our workplace doesn’t meet our expectations or don’t match our values, we start to perceive and experience the workplace as polluted and toxic. Often, we force ourselves to stay in these environments despite knowing they are not good for us. We absorb this toxicity and allow it to make us unwell. Being uncomfortable with our own dis-ease, we project this towards others further adding to the toxicity of the environment. For me personally, I stayed in a toxic workplace environment as long as I could withstand, but it made me sick. I had to learn and accept that it was ok to let go of that space, that I was no lesser for doing so but could easily become lesser by denying myself the right to do so. Jeremy had had the opportunity to learn multiple times throughout his life that he is well when he is connected to nature and disconnected from the chaos of city life. He learnt this at age 18 when returning home to country, he learnt this again during his escape to the Amazon, but for a time, he had forgotten to apply these lessons to his everyday life. It is awesome to hear Jeremy yarn about the healing he has felt again since moving back remote and I think there is a lot we can all learn from his journey in this space. Thank you my brotha. And as for that big Gindjurra. We never saw him again. Since then, we have worked hard to create a healthier environment at home and we have been fortunate to see several other Gindjurra getting around. Gaba nindu.