Shanna Whan

EPISODE 1: Shanna Whan, Sober in the Country
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Shanna Whan @sober_in_the_country, a woman that lives on Gamilaroi country of North Western NSW, says she is a ''very unlikely national spokesperson for change when it comes to the complex subject of our great love affair with booze in the bush".
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It was an absolute pleasure and privilege to yarn with Shanna, the founder of the not-for-profit Sober in the Country Ltd (SITC) who also created the campaign ‘OK2SAYNO’ which is making sure that we are putting our mates and their health first.
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Shanna almost lost her own life to alcohol addiction in 2015 and man did she turn her life around, and for the better of many! In 2021, Shanna was recognised with the NSW Australian of the Year "Local Hero" award! Huge congratulations Shanna!
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https://www.soberinthecountry.org
www.instagram.com/sobahlife_podcast
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-clinton-schultz-65a18a197/ 
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Disclaimer:  Sobah Life Podcasts may contain explicit content relating to social emotional wellbeing concerns such as abuse, addiction, self-harm and suicide. If you are likely to be offended or triggered by the discussion of these topics we recommend you do not listen to our podcasts. Sobah Life is not intended to replace professional help.  If you have any concerns about your social and emotional wellbeing, you should consult your doctor or mental health practitioner.  If you are triggered by any of the content of our podcasts and need immediate assistance you can call Lifeline (13 11 14), Beyond Blue (1300 22 4636) or if you are a young person, Kids Helpline (1800 55 1800).  A further list of crisis hotlines can be reached at:

https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/mental-health-services-infographic

Transcript

Clinton

Yaama maliyaa. Welcome to Sobah Life, a podcast that delves into people's lived journeys from merely surviving through to thriving. We yarn with people from all walks of life, who have been rock bottom and have found the strength, courage and determination to pick themselves up and to keep on going. We'll hear their stories, share their laughs, and shed a few tears while learning a truckload about living along the way. The stories are raw, and real. Sobah Life is proudly brought to you by Sobah Beverages, Australia's first non-alcoholic craft beer company, and is hosted by me, Dr. Clinton Schultz, a Gamilaraay man and psychologist. If anything in these yarns triggers you, and you need immediate help, please ensure to yarn up, you can contact Lifeline, Beyond Blue, or if you're a young person, Headspace or Kids Helpline.

Clinton 

Today, we're fortunate enough to catch up with Shanna, one hilarious human being with the incredible story and I feel so privileged to have the opportunity to sit here and catch up on this beautiful morning and have a yarn and, and allow you to tell us a bit about your journey and your passions. And I guess what your journey has led you to now and the cause that you you work your ass off for these days. And the awesome work that you actually do in particularly out in our, regional areas. So I'm going to hand it over to you and allow you to tell us a little bit about yourself. Shan...

Shanna Whan  2:17  

Thank you, Dr. Schultz. I've been dying to say that. Did you guess? No? Thank you so much. It's um, it's really, really lovely to finally meet you and eyeball you over the computer, at least anyway. Really, really appreciate that. You said my name right! You get extra points for that forever. Yeah, I'm the CEO and founder of a national charitable organization called Sober in the Country. SICT as some people call it and what we're doing is a charity is basically working our guts out, as he said, to make it okay to say no to beers in the bush, we're very, very, very specific about being laser focused on remote and regional Australia. That has all come about, after probably seven years’ worth of days and nights, spent some time working my guts out. It's really, this charity is pretty much an extension of my own story of sobriety and a great giant, big mission of paying it forward. You know, every morning when I get up, my my prayer and my mission to myself is to do what I can with what I have to make sure no other rural or remote Australian suffers in silence against the horrific, horrific disease of alcohol addiction. Because it was my story. And I nearly died because of the stigma, the shame, the fear, the guilt, the isolation, and just the horror of being a bloody alcoholic in plain sight of your entire community. But nobody really knowing what that looks like or what it meant. How the hell do we even talk about it? So, I made it my life's mission to be to come out and be be outspoken about the truth of what addiction looked like for me with a very simple hope of just helping other people. And suddenly, seven years later, here we are. So that's the gist of it.

Clinton Schultz  4:27  

Isn't it amazing how some of the most incredible organizations can blossom from some really shit circumstances? So, you know, most people would be aware of, I guess how Sobah came about and that Sobah came about through an extension of my lived experience as well and my desire to want to be able to give back and to try and bring around some societal change in this space... So, tell us a little bit more about what that journey has been like for you.

Shanna Whan  4:57  

Okay, so Shanna Whan today is a 40... shivers, I always have to question myself on how old I am... 47 I think, I don't know something, whatever. You can check, I tend to always add on a year and it's my husband's forever saying “Sweetheart, you're not that old yet." It's so funny. I actually don't. I don't even care. Is that funny?

Clinton Schultz  5:20  

I do the same. When you asked my age. I said 42. But now I've just realized now I don't turn 42 'til October.

Shanna Whan  5:27  

And isn't it funny? I think that's the joy of sobriety. I don't care how how old or how much older I am. I don't care that I'm no longer a 20-year-old baby. Um, every day is a blessing every day is a miracle. So, you know, I just isn't it funny. But that's that's where I'm at today. I'm something, 40 something, and, you know, here I sit in the middle of the bush in good Gamilaraay country, as you know, and running a national charity from the spare room in our little cute little, teeny tiny church that we live in. But to get here, and the backstory and and it's always, you know, it's always my greatest struggle in a podcast to not bore people to tears trying to summarize 40-bloody-six years or seven years, whatever it is, of life on Earth. But the best way I can summarize it, mate, is that I think I'm just so typical of an average rural kid. I grew up in outback Australia. I had; I had a very privileged upbringing. My father came from Zimbabwe, actually, would you believe? And dragged us over here when I was about six. And he had to build his life from ground zero, as a man in his 30s, because we were living in a war-torn area of Zimbabwe, or Africa in general was going sideways at a spectacular rate of knots, and he recognized that it would be a good thing to get us out. So, he kicked off life again from ground zero. And as a man who had grown up in complete poverty, he wanted to ensure his kids never experienced the same and as a result of that. He was a man who worked extremely hard and as kids were given very, very generous support and a wonderful upbringing. And for me, that was a kid running around Collarenebri, which is an area I'm sure you know, and bareback on horses, bloody jumping logs in the paddock, rescuing piglets and galahs and God knows what else and just living the happiest life of the most feral free range bush kid ever like I loved my childhood it was just a beautiful freakin' amazing and I always explain isn't it right? You know, like, I have clear memories Clinton of going down to the paddock and sitting in the dirt with my horses. I had four horses two of them were rescues that someone just said you may as well just have these. The driver who owns them buggered off and never came back. And one of the one of those mares dropped her palomino foal, we didn't even know she was in foal. So, all of a sudden, you know, went from one little bushwhacking kid with one fat little chestnut to a family of four It was great. And I kid you not my life as a child was riding so that the head honcho of that mob was a big fat, gorgeous palomino as well. His name was fudge on originally named by myself and because he was fat and sweet and yellow. I used to take fudge down to the river and swim him and the other three horses would follow him we'd swim bad, bareback, excuse me, through the, through the little creeks around the Collie district, and we'd come home via jumping logs bareback. And I'd come back to the paddock, and I would sit I was fairly, was fairly, like I was a proper little bush kid. I was so happy. Just being in nature with my animals. And that fat chestnut I mentioned it was beautiful. She would sleep with her head on my lap. So there I was sitting on the gum trees under a big blue sky with my horses, like a little, I dont know, free-range feral, like I said, I mean, it was just and I think it's, as I get older, and look back on that I just simply cannot believe how blessed I was to have that childhood. And again, the reason I guess I delve into how fortunate and privileged I was that people always want to know, how did the kid with such a good start to life end up a raging suicidal alcoholic? And to summarize that I had to go to boarding school when I was young, and as much as some people might think that that's great. I don't know. I don't know what people think really. It's not my business but I bloody hated it. I hated it. It was an extremely soul-destroying experience for me. I was not equipped for the political complexities of an all girls boarding school. Oh, yuck, it was bloody awful. Anyway...

Clinton Schultz  10:18  

It also would have disconnected you from everything that was you. So disconnected you from your family, from the country that you loved, from your horses, so everything that actually was an integral part of your wellbeing is removed when your sent away to boarding school. Is that kind of, when you reflect back on it, what it was like?

Shanna Whan  10:42  

Yeah, it was like being plucked out of the wilderness and put into this foreign environment that I didn't understand or comprehend. And while I was a smart enough kid to understand my parents who are doing the best, they could for me at the time with what they had. And the alternatives were pretty non-existent. But yeah, geewiz... It just, it just, I don't even know how to describe, you know. To this day, when I drive into my boarding school town I get, I get that same gut churning anxiety. It sits... Yeah, you know, I feel like a real dick explaining how traumatic boarding school was for me, because I understand, and I get that it was very privileged.

Clinton Schultz  11:30  

Yeah, I get it because it's something that I end up having to work with a lot, actually. Because, you know, obviously, I do a lot of work out in remote communities. And most of those kids are sent away from home some as early as 12 or 13. To go off to boarding school. So they go from very remote discrete communities to sometimes some of the, the most privileged, you know, Western institutions, schools, in in capital, cities, everything is foreign, and they just fall to pieces because the the experience of disconnect that they are going through, it's just indescribable and and i think unless people have actually experienced that level of disconnection, it's hard for them to get a grasp of what that can actually do to your well-being at a core level.

Shanna Whan  12:18  

Absolutely, mate. And that's, you know, and again, going back to how does how does a kid with all of this stuff ended up going off the rails. When I left that institution, I bolted out those front gates with my ears pinned back and said, "Get out of my way, don't tell me what to do or how to do it." Like, I was just saturated with rules and order and, and micromanagement about when I could do what I could do how I could do it like, but at the same time, I had no life skills, I had zero life skills. So, when I took off out of those front gates, like a mad thing, I mean, it was just a disaster waiting to happen. It was just inevitable. And, you know, so I took a gap year, because I insisted on doing that and getting some freedom. And because I was so glad, he experienced and so naive and so headstrong. It was a deadly cocktail and combination. And that very first year of life for me was, instead of being afraid in my head, I ached for and craved, it ended up being the year that would forever alter the trajectory of my life. And I went off to a station I wanted to jillaroo, I wanted to keep going with my love of horses and animals. And I thought that was the most logical thing to do. And I did that I ended up in a remote location again. And unfortunately for me, that year was a horrendous year. And again, long story short, because I was a pretty little outgoing confident thing on the surface, but highly inexperienced underneath. And long story, short party pub beer, me inexperienced, sexual assault, rape, etc. I don't know how to summarize that any better. But I had this half a dozen experiences within a 12-month period that were highly traumatic. And I don't, I don't think at the time I realized how traumatic that stuff was. But being a tough kid, and a bush kid who had been, you know, indoctrinated my whole life to just get up and go forth and keep going. And, of course, bearing in mind, we didn't have the internet, we didn't have bloody mobile phones. You don't really know what's even happening. You just work it out as you go. So, I bumbled through into university and into life. But what I realized early on is that if I had alcohol, I found the courage socially, that had been knocked out of me by that gap year of being, I guess, abused and assaulted and whatnot. And I figured out that if I added beer, I was a bit braver and that very quickly transitioned into Shanna the party girl and alter ego of this wild, you know, "crazy", "Daredevil" character. I mean, I was off my flippin head! I was, I was an absolutely loose unit to use country vernacular. And I now look back at that, and I always never wild, I was never crazy what I was doing was hiding behind a facade of alcohol and courage to just get through. And all of those things led to me having this dreadfully unhealthy use of alcohol and fast forward 22 years. And it just in increments went from being traumatized kid, to assault victim to party girl hiding, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Imagine the escalation of that. And by the time I was 39. And all of those things had resulted in me not being able to have my own family, that there was just so much chaos and grief in my life that was born from all of that stuff. And alcohol just exacerbated it and amplified it and took me closer and closer to the edge of hell, until I was suicidal. And all of a sudden, I woke up one day, and I was 40 going, I don't care if I live or die. I was bloody awful. And it happened one day at a time over 22 years, you know? And so, when people say How the hell did you end up there? That's how I say it one day at a time over 22 years. It's a progressive story that began as a good kid with the world at her feet in nearly cost me my life. Is that just shite how it happens like that?sneaky sneaky stuff

Clinton Schultz  16:37  

Absolutely. And I think your story really highlights how alcoholism doesn't discriminate. You can have had a really privileged good upbringing. So, you don't have to have come from, from poverty and oppression and trauma, to end up having things happen throughout your life that can unfortunately lead to us negatively coping through the use of, of substance abuse and very much like my story that, yeah, I did experience a bunch of abuse. But all I did then was try and run away from that abuse through abusing drugs and alcohol.  I did that for a really long time. same as you I went through multiple periods where I just didn't want to be here anymore. Multiple periods of thinking I was invincible and didn't give a shit what happened to me to be honest, so I got involved in doing some really stupid shit because I just didn't, I didn't care if I lived. I didn't care if I if I died, which you know, I reflect back on it now. And I go "Fuck me. That was a selfish attitude to have." But when I was in that bubble, I just didn't care. Is that kind of what it was like for you? Like, there was people around going, "Shan pull your head in. "But you're like, "I just don't give a fuck."

Shanna Whan  17:49  

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you said "selfish", because Shan today, I have a lot of people saying a lot of very generous things about me, which is so beautiful and humbling. I'm always very quick to say you need to understand when I drank.  When I was at the end of all that I wasn't a nice person. I was a horribly selfish, self-destructive, self centered human. And yes, it never occurred to me to look outside of myself and say, the impact that was having on the people who loved and cared about me and hadn't walked away in complete disgust or frustration. Yeah, exactly mate, I was trapped in self and selfishness and self-destruction.  I just couldn't see it for what it was. That's, that's the other aspect of alcoholism. That I'm very, very candid about, because I will never take away from anybody that trauma, and whatever is connected, absolutely it is. But when the rubber hits the road, and you get to a certain point, you choose to live, or you choose to die. I didn't think I cared if I lived or died. But thank God, there was a little tiny part of that little fease kid that had a bit of fight left in her arm makes me feel emotional. Yeah, and I just looked back, and I thought, What are you doing? You know, what are you doing? You have such a beautiful family. You have beautiful nieces and nephews; you have a husband who has not given up on you. You know, you just have to fight one last time. And is that funny? I never know when I'm going to get emotional. Um, and that was it. You know, I had a rock bottom moment where I woke up in an emergency room having fallen down a flight of stairs, nearly broke my neck woke up in hospital. And you know, there's my husband standing over me just going he just said, “you can't even help this, can you?" And it was seeing him acknowledge and realize that I was powerless that made me realize this is it like you're now at the end. You now have two roads left you to this way or you choose that way this is it like I just knew, Clinton, that I did not have one more blackout left in me. You know, I knew I was gonna die. And suddenly I thought, "oh, crikey on a to have another crack at this." Yeah. And hey, gosh, Unreal. Hey, just yeah...

Clinton Schultz  20:12  

it's amazing how those moments of self-reflection and clarity can come in the worst what seemed like the worst moment. So, I was having a yarn with somebody else who's gonna be on one of the future podcasts that we're doing. And he was explaining how for him that moment was, you know, he'd been locked up was when his mum first came to see him. And he seen the look in her eyes of her feeling like she failed.  he was just like; she's never done anything wrong. This is this is actually me, so it took that, that outside person and scout the absolute loss within them, for him to actually wake up himself. Is that kind of what it was like for you? 

Shanna Whan  20:56  

Yeah. Because I've been used to Tim saying things to me, like, "How could you? Why would you?" He kept he kept trying to figure out why I would do it. When he stopped and said, "I now understand you cannot help this." I took the pressure off me trying to defend myself and opened up the opportunity for me to realize that I couldn't help it. It was a real watershed moment. I just went, "I don't think I can," you know, and prior to then I had been denying that I was an alcoholic, denying it was out of control, denying the grief, the pain, the terror, the stress that I had caused everyone who loved me, denying everything and living in that horrendous place alcohol or anyone addicted or whatever substance lives in, which is just rage and resentment and denial and just the chaos of horrible stuff. You know, for the first time in my life, I just glimpsed from outside of myself looking in. You know, people always say to me what changed what changed and it was connecting with someone else who had been there and survived it and spoke to me completely candidly one on one. Before this whole sobriety explosion happened. That was unheard of to me. And we'll delve into that later, won't we? But before that, right here, let's but before then, no one had ever spoken to me about this. No one had ever reached out to me connected with me or said you're not alone. I was just in isolation, as is the norm for rural and remote bloody people, just drowning in plain sight of my community. So, when I met someone else who looked and walked and talked and sounded like me and shared their story of overcoming addiction, I just couldn't believe it. It was a bloody lifeline. And I went, hang on, please. And I grabbed that lifeline. I said, Tell me more. Tell me what you did. Tell me how you did it. And so began the transformation from nearly dead hopeless alcoholic to a girl who then spent a couple of years you know, because people always want to know what I did. And I said, and I say to them, I made sobriety, a non-negotiable priority over everything. And I mean, everything. I quit my job. I quit my life. I removed myself from society as I knew I had to I put myself into lockdown. I guess you could have called it home rehab. I rang everybody I loved and said "Righteo. Looks like I'm an alcoholic, would you bloody believe it? And of course, people who loved me said, "Thank God, you finally come to that conclusion, you idiot." They couldn't help me quickly enough, right. So, I was honest with people for the first time in so long, and instead of their judgment, what I got was their support. Those who didn't love me and those who had been, I guess piggybacking off me as the party go with the party house where you could do dumb stuff all the time, they vanished into a puff of smoke overnight, because they didn't want those boundaries. 

Clinton Schultz  24:03  

 I'm so glad and it's it's an experience that so many people have and there so fearful of so one of the most common things that I hear people yarn about is their fear of becoming socially isolated if they if they stop the party life or if they give up drinking and I get it because I went through that to to a certain extent myself, although when I stopped drinking 90% of my friend group disappeared within a matter of weeks I'm not on social media and I stopped drinking so they would lose your cut off basically. Yet gave me a couple of weeks to really realize that you know, what, if they don't have my well-being and my family's well-being if they're not thinking about that not considered or that I don't fucking want them in my lives anyway, to be honest, but it took me a while to get to that realization, but then that allows opportunities for so many new positive people to enter your life. is that...

Shanna Whan  25:02  

...You know something,...

Shanna Whan  25:03

... oh 100% mate. And like, one of the things that makes me get my Xena Warrior Princess on more than anything. I do I get I get this out, I get these. It's like a fire in my bones, to speak truth and in the country and you will understand this better than 90% of people I speak with Clinton because most of me you know most of the population dwells in the city where they can, if their friendship group in this suburb isn't working out, they can go across to another suburb, or join a different yoga class, or go to the beach instead of the pub, bla bla bla, the options and entertainment are on tap. When you quit drinking in the country town that taught you how to be an alcoholic and you remove yourself from alcohol. You are legitimately now geographically and socially isolated. And I saw that happen.

Clinton Schultz  25:58  

The country pub is the hub of of rural socializing, isn't it?

Shanna Whan  26:03  

It truly is right.  I've seen this happen again and again, with people who I've worked with who have found their way to sobriety in the bush, and have said to me, and they are grief stricken, they've said Shan, I don't get invited to anything anymore.  That brings out in me enough motivation to get up and show up every single day driving this charity, to educate people in the country to say you guys, I know that historically we are. We are a people and a place that are originally built on bloody trading rum. That is the history of Australia, we have idolized and worshipped alcohol for so bloody long, we don't even know our identity without it. So please, for the love of God when your mate says no, just understand they haven't had a lobotomy, they haven't suddenly become a different, intrinsic human being, they're just not drinking. The same thing they used to drink, they're still your friend, they're still a person, they still want to communicate and socialize, stop casting them off because they're saying no to beef. That is what I have seen happen again, and again and it just breaks my heart. And so, at the baseline of all the fighting I do nationally as an advocate in the rural sector is that exact problem because we can't just go off here or go off there. We are stuck with the people we have been drinking alongside for our whole lives. And if we're good enough to shout 10 schooners or be within scrape off the floor when we vomit over ourselves and pass out again. We're bloody good enough to support when we say "Actually, you know what, I'm somebody who has developed an addiction to this drug that kills 6000 people a year," said Shanna sharing statistics. "And I need to not be a drunk anymore." You know, you're not judging, you're not asking people to stop their lives, you're just telling them where you're at. And we're so uncomfortable with that as a society.

Clinton Schultz  28:06  

You're absolutely right. You know, how many times have you had the comment? You know, in those early years? How many times did you get the comments of you know, girl up, man up? I don't, turst people who dont drink what's wrong with ya. It's relentless at times, isn't it? So, in the country? How do you overcome that when, when there is such a small group of people to socialize with?

Shanna Whan  28:33  

Well, this, this is literally the heart and soul of our charity work now, mate.  I don't think anyone's ever discussed it or tackled it before we came along. It's just never been challenged. Because we have been told for decades in the country that if we have a problem with alcohol, we go off and we get sober in silence. I shared a post on Instagram not long ago, saying, you know, in the bush, we are literally encouraged to get as drunk as possible, as loudly as possible. And that is reviewed and celebrated. That's hysterical. It's funny, it's great. It's the mark of a man if he can drink, you know, deadly amounts of grog and not pass out what a legend. But the second somebody presents as or acknowledges there's a problem and literally says, "I need help. " we tell them to go away and get sober in silence, to tell them to go and be anonymous,

Clinton Schultz  29:21  

or to get on it and get over it. That's something, you know, get on it. Once you get on it, you'll be fine again mate 

Shanna Whan  29:48  

Right. I have I've said to people, I can't even think how many times I've said it "how do we treat alcoholism in the country?" We have to tell people to be anonymous or we tell them to have another beer and harden up. Both of those things are going to kill your mate who is an alcoholic. Right.  I need listeners to understand that when I got sober and we can't wait for us to delve into our shared experiences as pioneers, I guess because I had to do things the bloody hard way. I I started a recovery support meeting in my town because all of the people said, that's what I had to do. That is what I had to do. So, I did all of the things all of the people said I had to do.  I spent two years opening a building, putting up banners, baking scons desperately hoping someone would walk through the door. And low and behold, nobody did because what can you not be in a country community, Clinton?

Clinton Schultz  30:26  

 Sober 

Shanna Whan  30:26  

Or anonymous? If Clinton Schultz drives up in his big truck or whatever truck you drive, I don't know. I'm guessing you drive a truck because you look like a dude that has a dual cab. 

Clinton Schultz  30:44  

Triton 

Shanna Whan  30:45  

So, if you drive up in your Triton, to 8:30, outside of the church in Narrabri, on a bloody Tuesday night, everyone's gonna know Clinton is an alcoholic. That's not okay. You can get drunk every weekend of your life in a country town. But you can't turn around and say you're an alcoholic? What the heck. So, nothing like that works. And so having spent years in recovery, years trying to do everything everyone said I should do in the end, I said, with all due respect to you guys. I've tried it. And I've tried it. And it's not working. So, I'm going to now disconnect from all of these things. And I'm just going to go forth and use this God given voice and ability to communicate in words and via spoken word. I'm just going to talk about the truth of what happened to me. I'm not presenting as an expert. I'm not presenting as an influencer, I friggin hate that word. I am not presenting as an answer, or a guru. I am just Shanna Whan, the alcoholic who knows what it's like to fall through the cracks in a country town and come out the other side. I'm going to speak about that, with nothing more than the hope of it helping some other poor bugger trapped in this misery. That conversation went so far so quickly. Because no one in the country is going to speak up about this stuff. Nobody. It's like coming out as a gay person in the 1940s. You just don't do it. And I went, well, I'm gonna do it because I couldn't have children. I have nothing left to lose. I don't care. I just don't care anymore. Because I am happy. I am healthy, I am alive. And if this, is I don't have any wish for prestige or personal gain. And that's why when someone said to me, have you thought about creating a charity? I was like, No? How does that work? But it resonated with me immediately. Because I never wanted to be a coach. I never wanted to be a personality with a profile. Because ego is not something I want in my life personally anymore. It's not about me. It's about other people. It's about their stories. And so the charity concept really, really resonated with me straight up. I was like, that is what I need to do. In 2019, thanks to some people stepping up to help me. We went from being a solo very broke individual blogging, and just sharing truth in the bush to, very broke, to being registered as a charity. At that stage, I think I'd put in about 15,000 hours.

Clinton Schultz  33:14  

It’s a hard process hey? Registering a charity is great. Some people just think it's fill in a piece of paper and you've got a charity, but it was extremely involved.

Shanna Whan  33:25  

Yeah, and you know, something, I tell you what, Clinton I am so grateful every day that I did this. That I went at this from a hugely ethical, like, I look back at the process of what I've done in these last seven years. And I think because drunk me had no morals, no accountability. And I was all about ego and self-service. Sober Shanna was like, right, you don't do any of that anymore. And so sober in the country has been built systematically with enormous care with enormous duty of care, governance, process procedure, I wanted to have credibility. I wanted to have respectability as a person with some sobriety under my belt, not to just pop up overnight and say, this is who I am, I wanted it to be really carefully done. Because as a person coming through recovery, I understood intrinsically the danger of presenting as something, as ummm, when people are looking to you, I guess, for guidance, maybe or inspiration, even, you're holding a very precious person's life in your hands, and I didn't want to get it wrong. Which is why I'm always so damn clear about saying, guys. I'm not I'm not the be all and end or please don't look to me as some person who's never going to get it wrong, because I will. I'm just a person. But what I can do is speak truth. Yeah. And so, I'm really careful about that.

Clinton Schultz  34:55  

People respond to that truth, and you know, it's I lived for a few years as the absolute hypocrite, you know, I was a registered psychologist working in the drug and alcohol space, telling people to get their shit together to get off it.  Then going home and 20 rooms after it, and it lit that was making I think that was actually making me more sick. Then the alcohol and the drugs were at that time, it was the Hippacriticism, you know, I could, and I got to a point where I had to go fuck me. If I want other people to

Shanna Whan  35:30  

what are you doing? 

Clinton Schultz  35:30  

Yeah, If I want if I want to be telling other people that, you know, you need to start looking at how you can live a healthier life for yourself and others around you, then I sure as hell had to start looking at how I was going to do that for me and for mine. so, I really get where you're coming from there in terms of the power of, of truth, you know, people want people's true lived experience and story. And they want to know, yeah, not only have you experienced it, that you are living it, you know, you've gone through this shit times you're now living, the more positive view, and people can get to see, which I think's I thinks awesome.

Shanna Whan  36:10  

Oh, and diddo, oh, and isn't it funny? As sobriety grows, and you know, we had a great chatting way on the phone about this. This industry, against all odds is booming, not so much in the bush because we're going to drag their heels and be stubborn until the last breath. But internationally, right. And nationally, you and I know that sobriety is trending. And you and I also share the common thing of having done this long before it became a trend. And doing the bloody hard yards. Like how funny is it that we both got laughed at again and again and again and again?

Clinton Schultz  36:53  

Absolutely. And you know, from friends from family from industry, everybody was laughing when we started what we do here at sobah. I can guarantee that when you told people you know what, I'm going to start a charity yarning about sobriety in the bush that people were just like, fucking kidding yourself.... 

Shanna Whan  37:16  

(Laughs)..."You're dreaming darl"...

Clinton Schultz  37:18  

...It's gonna last... 

Shanna Whan  37:20  

...and they did right.

I got knocked after knock after knock after no after no after No. And to be honest with you to this day, Clinton, despite the fact that we are educating 10s and 10s and 10s of 1000s of people and supporting hundreds and hundreds, federal and state governments still haven't even acknowledged what we do. Right? So, we still are fighting a societal thing that's just enormous. But look at what we're achieving. It's just extraordinary. And I guess and you would like you would understand this better than anybody because when you're coming from something behind the eight ball before, it's some popular opinion, you're not being driven by a fad, you're not being driven by anything other than the truest kind of grit and authenticity. And purest ambition isn't the word I'm looking for. I don't like that word. Particular, you know what I'm saying? Like it's just coming from such a special, important, true place. And I believe that is why you resonate. And I resonate with people

Clinton Schultz  38:25  

yeah, I think what it is, is it's not coming from a position of individual gain first, like, you're not thinking about what am I going to get out of this? It's more thinking that "I've been in a situation where I realized there wasn't what I needed available, I'm gonna create it, and hopefully, that'll help somebody else" because if you've already been through it, you don't necessarily need that thing anymore. You know, you don't need sober in the country to be there for you anymore, because you've already come out the other side. But through creating it, you've created opportunities for others, which hopefully will assist with their healing journeys.

Shanna Whan  39:06  

And you know, the most beautiful thing I remember being told from an old member of I think it was Alcoholics Anonymous, and I remember them saying to me, you know, Shan, best thing you can do is service work to others, because we keep what we have by giving it away. And that just pa that just got me right in the feels. You know, from from a faith perspective, it just all makes sense. It's like service to others. Oh my god, there's the most beautiful quote from Mother Teresa, which says, you’ve got to find your own Calcutta. Every single one of us have a Calcutta in our backyards for the impoverished, the forgotten the alone, the abandoned, and that's what alcoholics are in the country. That's my Calcutta. You know, it's funny when I was being a selfish jerk, and dying of alcoholism, but kidding myself. I wasn't I was like; I think I might go to Africa and work with orphans. God Honestly, I, you know, I just couldn't see what was under my nose. And what is under my nose is a is a community in desperate need in the bush. And it's an exactly that. So, this is a giant act of service to make sure like my dream and my goal is that it's always going to be okay to say no to a beer. That is the charity hashtag. I'm sure you've seen it #ok2sayno we don't care if you can safely enjoy drink Good for you. Yay, I don't care. That's not my business. But if Clinton or Shanna or whoever cannot have a beer, or an alcohol-free beer, for that matter, whatever, horses for courses, we are here to support people when they have to say no. And that simple conversation has had a ripple effect so expensive across the outback that people we get we get messages Clinton every day, from people and because I guess we're seven years in now. I've had messages from people saying, Shan, I started following you when you went on SBS insight in whatever the hell that was 2016. And I've been following your page ever since.  I'm now two years sober. So, people who have looked at it how to sniff had a look around, walked away, come back again. Or heart or get so overcome with emotion to try and even explain to you the impact these conversations are having. And you know better than anybody, there is no breed of human more stubborn, or resilient or flippin hard to reach than a bloody bushy, where a stubborn breed of jerks

we really are

Clinton Schultz  41:41  

Well, you had to be, to be honest, like this, for the longest period of drought. You know, you're out of my country. And then I know how bad it's been down there. Particularly over the last (Yeah), but longer than that, but really, you know, the spotlights been on it over the last decade, you have to build such resilience living in the bush out there just to cope with the drought, And then the floods.

Shanna Whan  42:07  

and, and then the flood, and then the mice plague. Honestly, it's just unbelievable. And as you know, in your listeners may not be aware, this Gamilaraay very country is just, man, it's so beautiful. It is such a beautiful, beautiful country. But when it's in the grip of drought, it is soul-destroying, it is soul-destroying in this decade that's just been passed. And, you know, like I like I've said a million times in a million keynote talks. We live in permanent iso, right? So, our pandemic is permanent. We, this is our normal, we are isolated from people, places, services, support, etc, etc. Now you throw a drought into that mix in you throw these in this and this and that. And you need to become incredibly resilient, and incredibly tough. But I tell you what, the thing I have learned, overcoming alcoholism, and living remotely and living in the bush through all of these things for 40, whatever years. The toughest people I know, have vulnerability at the heart, and soul of who they are. We can be tough while being vulnerable. And that is the lesson I take from everything I've experienced is that through opening up that vulnerable aspect of myself and giving other people permission to do the same, it actually strengthens you. And it's that paradox of we get strength through surrender, you know, and suddenly, you find resilience, that's a whole new level because you have a clear mind, you have a healthy body, you have a desire to live, and suddenly Look what Clinton can do. Look what Shanna can do, you know.

Clinton Schultz  43:54  

I'm often telling people though, that you know, resilience is it's a rubber band at the end of the day. And some of those rubber bands might be them little thin ones around the end of your bread bag. Some of those might be the big ones that you use for training in the gym. It's still a rubber band. So, you know, people have got that big, thick, gym junkie, rubber band you know. You can stretch that out and you can stretch that out and it's going to hold that you know that all that adversity a lot longer than those little rubber bands, you stretch between your fingers, you're tight between two Utes and start driving them apart. It's still gonna snap. So, resilience it isn't infinite for anybody. And timeless times, like the drought that people have gone through, I think is really exposed. Even for the toughest out there. They need to still cope. You know, none of us as human beings are invincible and we're always going to need to cope at some stage. So, what do you do when you're out in the country and the only way you've ever learned what resources nobody's taught you or afforded the opportunity to be present?

Shanna Whan  45:07  

And as the old saying goes, how do you get an Australian Bushmen to open up about his problems? You feed him a bottle of rum; you know. So, it's a double-edged sword after double-edged sword after double-edged sword for rural, isolated, you know, busy remote Australians and exactly that. And so, yeah, so what we did so one of the ways we are helping people with that, and I mean, I can't really actually believe it's taken this, it took a pandemic, for the rest of the globe to stop picking on me for this, right? So, what I thought with my great humungous brain was okay, and I'm being totally facetious. I thought, okay, so I can't get to a support meeting. Unless I drive 300 kilometers. That's not friggin feasible. I can't afford that. I can't afford to travel to Sydney and go to rehab, I can't do this, this that that blah, blah, blah. You know, the average bush person when we like, if I need to leave to go to any capital city for any reason, it'll be 1500 bucks before I've even blinked just in transport, accommodation meals. It's unreal, right? So, all I kept thinking was shit, what do we do for these people? You know, what do we do for us? And so, I went and did the radical, I would have thought blindingly obvious thing by creating a connection online. And, and again, you you you get these as a pioneer who was laughed at. People kept saying you don't do it like that. You can't do it like that. Oh, my God, the opposition in the criticism I came against there was actually some actual proper hate mail coming my way from hardcore traditionalists. Who just thought it was appalling? How's this though, for an incredible, full spin on that cycle. So, when the pandemic happened, suddenly, the entire globe, for the first time had a glimpse of what it is like to overcome addiction in permanent isolation. Suddenly, all of the traditionalists who said they would never speak online or never have meetings face to face online. They're coming across, like lemmings. We can't keep up with it. And I just sat back, and I thought, well, they go now they understand. Now they get it, you know. And so that's anyway, well, so that's how we started doing it many, many years ago, as I just said, Let's talk you guys, let's just talk. But what we found in the country space, right, was that, and you would know this, when you got Clinton and Shana and Joe Blow and blah, blah, blah, and whoever and whatever, from a country town. Whether you might work in the grains industry over here, or you might be a Gamilaraay man from over there, or whatever you are, we were separated by zero degrees in the country, doesn't matter how many kilometers apart you are, it's a tiny space. And so, our Facebook group that I had going, which was private, of course, and very carefully monitored, people were running into each other, from east to west coast, and so forth, because it grew so quickly, and I went, Oh, crap. Bloody country, it's so tiny. So, what we did was we created a separate platform altogether, which we now call the bush tribe. And basically, you can jump on there and be completely anonymous, completely safe, if that's what you need to do. And, you know, for some of us, and like, now, you and I don't give a stuff about being public. But you know, back in the day, it could have impacted my job or my professional career, or, you know, relationships, whatever. So, you know, we just want people to have a soft place to land where they can speak anonymously and connect in a safe non-judgmental space. And that is how we are tackling that really, really uncommon issue and what happens in there, it's the most beautiful thing, mate god, it's beautiful. These country people get together, they have a yarn, they get it, you get it, I get it, we get it, we talk, they find their courage, they find their voice, and low and behold, one or two or three years, whatever it is down the track, they come out, and they stop hiding, and they encourage someone else or they don't doesn't matter, whatever their journey is, it's their journey. But we are connecting bush people, and it is the simplest thing. And it is saving and changing life after life afterlife. I mean, It Ain't Rocket Science. Isn't it? Just beautiful? 

Clinton Schultz  49:28  

Absolutely.

Shanna Whan  49:29  

 Beautiful.

Clinton Schultz  49:29  

So, what's next for Sober in the Country? And for yourself? What's Next on the agenda? I know you always got something ticking away and that, Brian of yours. We've had a few yarns with some deadly things that I think are gonna come up. But I want you to let us know what your plans are and what's going on.

Shanna Whan  49:51  

I love the deadly. There's two there's two huge things I've got in my brain that I can't say too much about just yet, but when I do say them, you'll go "Ohhohao” you little trickster you. Couple of really amazing projects, but I just need to keep them under wraps for the minute. Growth, Clinton through growth. And honestly, in my heart and soul, day and night burns these fire that I want to see, in my lifetime a future where a man walks into an Outback pub and says no thanks to a beer and nobody blinks... 

Clinton Schultz  50:27  

...Nobody laughs... 

Shanna Whan  50:28  

...I want to keep, nobody laughs nobody says, "you can't trust a bloke who says no to a beer". I want to see a future outback where there are delicious alternatives in our pubs in our clubs and at our picnic races and our rugby days. I want to see a day where zero alcohol and no alcohol drinks are par for the course. I want to see a day where we don't have our elite athletes promoting Grog. I want to see a day where it is normal. And it's okay to say no. And above all else, I just want to see a day where our bloody leadership in this country steps up and helps and stops profiting from alcohol tax and actually does something to deal with the deaths we have every 90 minutes in this country from Grog. And Holy moly, look at me getting on a rant, but you know, I don't see myself stopping anytime soon. I just can't, I can't turn it off. 

Clinton Schultz  51:21  

And it's and it's good that you can't turn it off. Because this fight isn't going to be won. Without the efforts of people like yourself, you know that the supports won't be there. For the people who need if there aren’t the people with the energy out there driving, (yep), driving the message home and fighting that fight at the levels that it needs to need to be fought. So absolutely commend you for all the work that you have done and that you are continuing to do. And obviously, you know, we can't wait to be involved with some of the things that are going to hopefully graduate in the future. How can people who are listening to this if people want to support the work that you guys are doing over there at sober in the country, what's the best way that they can support?

Shanna Whan  52:12  

Well, you wouldn't believe it, Clinton, our hard-working minions have developed an amazing website. So, if people would like to go to SoberintheCountry.org, we literally have a tab that says help us. And we've listed the eight top ways people can help. And I know it's as boring as anything, but donations are the critical need that we have. Because we don't have any support, as I said before from the government. And we have two people currently doing the job of probably about 22. And we need to get some funding in place to ensure that we don't die. And I would love to see people who recognize the essential nature of helping keep rural Australia sustainable so that the rest of Australia can eat. Step up and give us a hand because that's what we're doing. We're ensuring a sustainable future for rural Australians. You know, honestly, that's what we're doing. And we just need support, we need help, we need funding, we need donations. Or if you don't feel inclined to do that, jump onto our website and go to the merch tab and get us Sober in the Country shirt. You know, or a cap or a bucket hat where our merchandise tag us share us on social media. You know the one thing I'm always saying to people is, you know, someone will come past me in the streets and say, "saw what you're doing, today and gosh, it's great". And I say cool. Can you do something about that? And I go, what do you mean? And I say share the post that resonated just share it. Because suddenly that's 500 people in your network that didn't know about us who now do you know. So just take action, get in, get in the trenches with us, help us to keep helping change and save lives. We need the help, and we welcome it. And I'm not too proud to ask not ever.

Clinton Schultz  53:59  

(laugh) And the same way. I'm guessing if there's people out there who do need support, how can they find bush tribe.

Shanna Whan  54:07  

So basically, once again, go to SoberintheCountry.org and visit the bush tribe tab. So that is all explained as soon as you hit the website and we just ask people to fill out a few details. And then in you go and it's beautiful. It's the most amazing, warm, welcoming community in there. Yes, so basically and for those who may not identify with certain aspects of what we do we are we now so Sober in the Country is now pretty much a rural voice that works alongside all of the leading National Alcohol awareness bodies. So, whether it's Hello, Sunday morning, fair, Australian drug foundation doesn't matter. We are all linked. We are all connected. So, everything we do is collegiate in nature. So, if you don't find your fit with us, for instance, you might have a coastal person who is loving this yarn and doesn't necessarily identify as remote. No problemo, we've got all these beautiful options listed in the resources section. You know, there's so much out there, we just need to make it accessible to people. And I just, you know, I want everyone who lives in this country to know there is stuff out there for every single one of us but I tell you what, you've got to want it and you've got to be relentless about pursuing it, it's not going to come to you You got to get a few bums and you've got to chase it down and you know that better than anyone.

Clinton Schultz  55:27  

Absolutely you know, the only person who can actually bring around change is yourself you know, you can have all the practitioners out there thinking that they know best about what's best for you. But really, the only person you ever bring around change is you. So, you've got to, you've got to want it, you've got to commit to it and you've got to put in the time the energy the sacrifices to bring around those changes that you actually want...

Shanna Whan  55:51  

... absolutely...

Clinton Schultz  55:52  

... what final message would you love to leave with all our listeners out there Shan

Shanna Whan  55:59  

Honestly, mate just to say that you know, if you think you have an issue, you probably do but don't panic because it's never too late to find your way out of a dark place, even when you're at the very bottom, of the bottom, of the bottom. There is always hope there is always a way so have hope, fight one last time reach out and know that this community that is growing will change the course of the future of Australia and you know, jump in get become part of this exciting thing and yeah, choose to fight, choose to live and choose to say no, if that's what you need to do,

Clinton Schultz  56:34  

beautifully put and absolutely agree with that, you know, it's funny, I had this old uncle once and he was really struggling with what everybody else was saying about me. And this old uncle, he just said, he said boy, what other people say about you is none of your fucking business, your (Shanna Laughs) business is to be the best version of you that you know you can be for you and your family and your community. And I was like, man...

Shanna Whan  57:00  

...Beautiful...

Clinton Schultz  57:00  

... You're right, you know like I'd spending so much time worrying about what other people were saying about my problems. And I wasn't taking any ownership of my problems.

Shanna Whan  57:11  

And you know, I don't we don't talk enough about the joy of sobriety and the benefits right of being whether it's drinking less or not at all. Holy moly, that insecure person that you were, I was the same I was consumed with thoughts of what do people think about me. Today, I literally couldn’t care less (Clinton giggles) about what other people think of me because I really like myself. I love myself, not in a wonky way but then I'm doing the best I can to be the best person I can every day and I'm at peace if you like me great if you don't on your bike, I really don't get stuff. And so, you know we find peace we find happiness, we find health, we save money, we become productive, we become people who contribute to our communities and our society. And even people like me who the community had written off as a waste of space and was nothing but a source of gossip. You know, you will turn your life on its head if you choose to do so. And it will change, it won't happen overnight but it will come and what's at the end of that is indescribable for those of us who know and so I can't encourage people enough do not lose hope, do not lose hope because your story of survival and overcoming addiction will be an inspiration to every single human in your circle of friends whether you believe that or not it will be, it's such a beautiful thing.

Clinton Schultz  58:39  

Amazingly put, thank you very much. Thank you for coming on and sharing your morning with us, Shanna. And all the best with everything that I know you have got going on in that head of yours and that you want to get out there (Shanna giggles) and put out there for communities left right and center and I can't wait to be a part of it and we're always here to support in any way we can. So again, thank you very much Gaba nindu in our language and an I yarn to you again soon.

Shanna Whan  59:09  

Legend Thank you Clinton and keep up the good work....

Clinton Schultz  59:13  

On reflecting on my conversation with Shana. It reminded me of the beauty of a butterfly that blossoms from a cocoon after timespan is what many may see as an ugly caterpillar. A caterpillar goes through its day consuming what it needs to survive. It's not worried about the destruction it might cause to a lush garden, a plant that has significance to someone or of constantly consuming two things a bear in its mission to gorge itself a caterpillar doesn't think of what's left for other caterpillars to eat. It simply does what in that time. It feels it needs to do to survive. This is what it's like to be an alcohol addiction. When isn't conscious of the impacts of their addiction on others? An alcoholic isn't processing what is the safe amount to drink, or even what do I do if the drink runs dry. An alcoholic is simply drinking to maintain in their own mind’s survival. At some point, when the caterpillar has consumed all, it can, and is at that point of literal physical explosion and death. If it continues, the caterpillar makes a decision to stop consuming and to weave it safe haven for transformation. It's safe little cocoon, in that cocoon. It shelters itself from the outside world and allows itself to morph to heal and to grow. Sometimes that's where we get to, we get to that point where we feel like if I keep going, I'm going to mentally and spiritually explode and probably die. We feel like we have to go to our cocoon and shelter ourselves from the outside world. If we find that safe place, be at our home, on country or in rehab, or wherever else it might be. We can better set ourselves to morph, heal and grow. After the healing and growth is completed, the caterpillar comes out of its cocoon, ready to face the world around it as a beautiful butterfly. It spreads its wings and flowers off back into the world to reconnect, spread its beauty, and thrive for the remainder of its life. This is the most important part of Shanna's story for me. She found her cocoon, allowed herself to rest, heal and morph and reemerged into the big bad world around her are far more beautiful human being than when she was stuck in addiction. She now spreads laughter, joy, empathy, compassion, and most of all hope. In doing so she attracts so many to her life cause Sober in the Country. I'm so grateful for having had the opportunity to have this conversation with Shanna and time to reflect on her journey. Gaba nindu.